6 ms·

I commented somewhere else here with a link to a researcher posting about findings. The link is to a twitter thread, and several posts down they say, "The birds

I commented somewhere else here with a link to a researcher posting about findings. The link is to a twitter thread, and several posts down they say, "The birds seem to be in relatively good condition, except that they are extremely emaciated. They have no fat reserves and barely any muscle mass. Almost as if they have been flying until they just couldn’t fly anymore."

btilly 6y ago
Almost like...their reflex is to fly until they are out of the smoke. Which is adaptive when dealing with small fires, and lethal when they are unable to fly far enough to get out of the smoke.
- sjm-lbm 6y ago
  Wouldn't the fires of the past (ie, the fires that these birds would have evolved to survive) have been larger? I've always assumed that, while fires of the past would have been more rare, they would have bigger if allowed to grow without any resistance. I mean, all our firefighting efforts do some good, right?
  - Filligree 6y ago
    No, our firefighting efforts mean the fires get far bigger once they do erupt. Forest fires in the past were more frequent, but also smaller.
    - throwaway5752 6y ago
      That is not true. These are, broadly speaking, in unmanaged areas without fire suppression programs. It is extraordinarily hot and dry in the areas with fires, and that's why these are bigger than in modern human history. edit: fair point on sources. There are a lot, and they're easily found. This was an interesting read https://www.fs.usda.gov/nfs/11558/www/nepa/19535_FSPLT3_3990394.pdf https://www.fs.usda.gov/nfs/11558/www/nepa/19535_FSPLT3_3990... (pdf) though I'd warn anyone not to just look for supporting information for this pet theory. Fire suppression builds up fuel and causes worse fires. But there are worse fires in areas without fire suppression programs. There are even worse fires (vs historically) in areas with prescribed burn programs. Your propublica article is also linked to by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_California_wildfires#Causes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_California_wildfires#Caus.... Adjacent to the "Fire Policy" section there is a robustly sourced "Climate Change" section. I don't have time to comment further here, so I'll leave it at that.
      - btilly 6y ago
        Do you have a citation? Everything that I've read on the subject says otherwise. I know of no unmanaged areas without fire suppression programs anywhere in the West. And as articles like https://www.propublica.org/article/they-know-how-to-prevent-megafires-why-wont-anybody-listen https://www.propublica.org/article/they-know-how-to-prevent-... points out, scientists have been clear for decades that the disastrous fires we are now dealing with are the direct result of past human attempts to put out fires.
    - nabilhat 6y ago
      West coast wildfires are different for a lot of reasons. Brush fires under the redwood canopy rarely happen now, because almost all of the redwood canopy is gone. PNW fires look like upscaled christmas tree safety demonstrations, because the forests have been replaced by douglas fir farms. The fires are more intense and explosive now that water tables have fallen and soil retention has been compromised by continuous logging and terraforming. Most of the modern west coast forest fires are a lumber farming problem of our own construction. Fires won't change that, as long as logging companies will be subsidized to harvest and sell the singed trunks for lumber and replant the same extremely flammable crop. The forests of the past are gone.
- throwaway5752 6y ago
  I'd be happy to read any reputable paper, article, or discussion thread you can find about it. Seems like something that would be falsifiable and has been researched already, so not worth debating about in the hypothetical.
  - btilly 6y ago
    I am not a researcher, but https://www.audubon.org/news/how-wildfires-affect-birds https://www.audubon.org/news/how-wildfires-affect-birds would seem to be a reputable source. It was written in 2017, but is relevant to the current situation. Multiple passages in it are relevant to this issue. Birds do try to fly away from fire. We have evidence that smoke inhalation is worse for birds than mammals (which would mean that birds would need to flee smoke, and not just the flames). And the possibility of birds dying of exhaustion from trying to fly away was already a concern to wildlife conservationists. None of which is proof. But it is all suggestive that I'm making a reasonable guess as to why they are dying.
    - throwaway5752 6y ago
      Not a researcher in this area, either. And no need to be, we are probably able to evaluate research. Great article. I will say that some sources (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/15/us/dead-birds-new-mexico-colorado.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/15/us/dead-birds-new-mexico-...) indicate that migratory bird die off observations started in mid-Aug, which would not jibe with the fire timelines (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_Complex_fire#Timeline https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_Complex_fire#Timeline). Also, the linked article submission talks about New Mexico, Texas, and even Nebraska which are hundreds of miles from the fires and generally outside of areas of NWS smoke forecast concern (https://www.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=2ff1677111ae4018ac705fcce7c3312f https://www.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=2ff16...)
- nabilhat 6y ago
  It's migration season. Smoke inhalation reduces breathing efficiency. Flying above the smoke is less efficient with reduced thermal lift activity. Poor visibility makes supplemental calories and overnight roost locations harder to find. More calories burned all around, and fewer calories are accessible, for thousands of miles of migration route.
trhway 6y ago
in the smog affected areas there is also probably not that much insects - bird food - giving how insects are breathing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiracle_(arthropods) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiracle_(arthropods)), i.e. beside the fire itself, the resulting air pollution may probably clog the insects breathing pores. Even when not dying, some insects stop breathing and fall into kind of hibernation, thus no flying around to be consumed by birds.

btilly 6y ago

Almost like...their reflex is to fly until they are out of the smoke. Which is adaptive when dealing with small fires, and lethal when they are unable to fly far enough to get out of the smoke.

sjm-lbm 6y ago
Wouldn't the fires of the past (ie, the fires that these birds would have evolved to survive) have been larger? I've always assumed that, while fires of the past would have been more rare, they would have bigger if allowed to grow without any resistance. I mean, all our firefighting efforts do some good, right?
- Filligree 6y ago
  No, our firefighting efforts mean the fires get far bigger once they do erupt. Forest fires in the past were more frequent, but also smaller.
  - throwaway5752 6y ago
    That is not true. These are, broadly speaking, in unmanaged areas without fire suppression programs. It is extraordinarily hot and dry in the areas with fires, and that's why these are bigger than in modern human history. edit: fair point on sources. There are a lot, and they're easily found. This was an interesting read https://www.fs.usda.gov/nfs/11558/www/nepa/19535_FSPLT3_3990394.pdf https://www.fs.usda.gov/nfs/11558/www/nepa/19535_FSPLT3_3990... (pdf) though I'd warn anyone not to just look for supporting information for this pet theory. Fire suppression builds up fuel and causes worse fires. But there are worse fires in areas without fire suppression programs. There are even worse fires (vs historically) in areas with prescribed burn programs. Your propublica article is also linked to by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_California_wildfires#Causes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_California_wildfires#Caus.... Adjacent to the "Fire Policy" section there is a robustly sourced "Climate Change" section. I don't have time to comment further here, so I'll leave it at that.
    - btilly 6y ago
      Do you have a citation? Everything that I've read on the subject says otherwise. I know of no unmanaged areas without fire suppression programs anywhere in the West. And as articles like https://www.propublica.org/article/they-know-how-to-prevent-megafires-why-wont-anybody-listen https://www.propublica.org/article/they-know-how-to-prevent-... points out, scientists have been clear for decades that the disastrous fires we are now dealing with are the direct result of past human attempts to put out fires.
  - nabilhat 6y ago
    West coast wildfires are different for a lot of reasons. Brush fires under the redwood canopy rarely happen now, because almost all of the redwood canopy is gone. PNW fires look like upscaled christmas tree safety demonstrations, because the forests have been replaced by douglas fir farms. The fires are more intense and explosive now that water tables have fallen and soil retention has been compromised by continuous logging and terraforming. Most of the modern west coast forest fires are a lumber farming problem of our own construction. Fires won't change that, as long as logging companies will be subsidized to harvest and sell the singed trunks for lumber and replant the same extremely flammable crop. The forests of the past are gone.
throwaway5752 6y ago
I'd be happy to read any reputable paper, article, or discussion thread you can find about it. Seems like something that would be falsifiable and has been researched already, so not worth debating about in the hypothetical.
- btilly 6y ago
  I am not a researcher, but https://www.audubon.org/news/how-wildfires-affect-birds https://www.audubon.org/news/how-wildfires-affect-birds would seem to be a reputable source. It was written in 2017, but is relevant to the current situation. Multiple passages in it are relevant to this issue. Birds do try to fly away from fire. We have evidence that smoke inhalation is worse for birds than mammals (which would mean that birds would need to flee smoke, and not just the flames). And the possibility of birds dying of exhaustion from trying to fly away was already a concern to wildlife conservationists. None of which is proof. But it is all suggestive that I'm making a reasonable guess as to why they are dying.
  - throwaway5752 6y ago
    Not a researcher in this area, either. And no need to be, we are probably able to evaluate research. Great article. I will say that some sources (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/15/us/dead-birds-new-mexico-colorado.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/15/us/dead-birds-new-mexico-...) indicate that migratory bird die off observations started in mid-Aug, which would not jibe with the fire timelines (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_Complex_fire#Timeline https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_Complex_fire#Timeline). Also, the linked article submission talks about New Mexico, Texas, and even Nebraska which are hundreds of miles from the fires and generally outside of areas of NWS smoke forecast concern (https://www.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=2ff1677111ae4018ac705fcce7c3312f https://www.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=2ff16...)
nabilhat 6y ago
It's migration season. Smoke inhalation reduces breathing efficiency. Flying above the smoke is less efficient with reduced thermal lift activity. Poor visibility makes supplemental calories and overnight roost locations harder to find. More calories burned all around, and fewer calories are accessible, for thousands of miles of migration route.

trhway 6y ago

in the smog affected areas there is also probably not that much insects - bird food - giving how insects are breathing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiracle_(arthropods) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiracle_(arthropods)), i.e. beside the fire itself, the resulting air pollution may probably clog the insects breathing pores. Even when not dying, some insects stop breathing and fall into kind of hibernation, thus no flying around to be consumed by birds.