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That's very academic. No, if small commercial developers cannot use the language without paying massive fees, you might as well forget any popularity. Heck, y

That's very academic. No, if small commercial developers cannot use the language without paying massive fees, you might as well forget any popularity. Heck, you couldn't even use Ada for non-GPL open source programs. Not sure why you compare it to Smalltalk Because Smalltalk vendors have a long history of doing the same pricing that made it impractical to impossible for the little guy to use the language. There have been several threads on HN about this.

Rochus 6y ago
> No, if small commercial developers cannot use the language without paying massive fees, you might as well forget any popularity Have you read my answer? There is no reason why you couldn't use FSF GNAT or GPS in closed-source projects. > Heck, you couldn't even use Ada for non-GPL open source programs. Why not? The GPL GNAT with RLE allows you to use any licence with your application, whether closed or open-source. > Because Smalltalk vendors have a long history of doing the same pricing that made it impractical to impossible for the little guy to use the language. There were always free ST versions as far as I can remember. The "little guy" could e.g. use "Little Smalltalk" by Budd which appeared before 1987.
- igouy 6y ago
  > There is no reason why you couldn't use FSF GNAT or GPS in closed-source projects. But there is Fear Uncertainty & Doubt.
  - Rochus 6y ago
    Although we have the Enlightenment behind us, there is still superstition. There is nothing I can do about that.
    - igouy 6y ago
      You inform those who are open to being better informed.
      - Rochus 6y ago
        Well, obviously with moderate success ;-)
- protomyth 6y ago
  First the last, There were always free ST versions as far as I can remember. The "little guy" could e.g. use "Little Smalltalk" by Budd which appeared before 1987. No one could write a commercial program with Little Smalltalk. Love the book, but the implementation is not going to work. Heck, Squeak could not do a program that looked anything like a real Windows or Mac program. Maybe we're talking past each other but the IDE says the community edition is only authorized for GPL software, every other edition is big bucks. https://www.adacore.com/gnatpro/comparison https://www.adacore.com/gnatpro/comparison
  - Rochus 6y ago
    Well, if you were willing to spend 60$ you could buy a Smalltalk package suited for commercial applications which looked somehow like Windows. But that's not the topic here anyway. > Maybe we're talking past each other but the IDE says the community edition is only authorized for GPL software, every other edition is big bucks. Do not let this mislead you. The software is available under GPL. That is all you need to know. And GPL allows you to use the software for any purpose. Maybe I should mention that I studied law for two years and then had one more year of lectures in patent and license contract law (see my profile for more information).
    - protomyth 6y ago
      Ok, no. Look at the GPL interaction with App Stores. GPL has been debated on HN forever.
      - Rochus 6y ago
        I do not understand what you are trying to say. I also don't understand what the current topic of conversation has to do with App Stores.
igouy 6y ago
March 7, 1988 — "Smalltalk/V 286 is available now and costs $199.95, the company said. Registered users of Digitalk's Smalltalk/V can upgrade for $75 until June 1." https://books.google.com/books?id=CD8EAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA25&ots=jiXJNN0ii3&dq=digitalk%20v%2F286&pg=PA25#v=onepage&q=digitalk%20v/286&f=false https://books.google.com/books?id=CD8EAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA25&ots=...
- protomyth 6y ago
  which quickly became Visual Smalltalk Enterprise, which you can ask various companies about how that went commercially.
  - igouy 6y ago
    Factually, October 22 1989 — "… an OS/2 version of the Smalltalk language, Smalltalk V/PM … The $500 product is designed to cut the time it takes to prototype user-interface-intensive applications for Presentation Manager." https://www.cbronline.com/news/digitalk_has_first_compiled_version_of_smalltalk_for_os2/ https://www.cbronline.com/news/digitalk_has_first_compiled_v...
    - protomyth 6y ago
      OS/2 didn't move the needle for anyone. Smalltalk V evolved into an unsupported, expensive Smalltalk. Smalltalk never had its Turbo moment.
      - igouy 6y ago
        15 July 1991 — "The package costs $499.95. Registered users of earlier versions of Smalltalk/V Windows can upgrade for $25. … Digital's Smalltalk/V Macintosh will continue to cost $199.95, but eliminates the previous per copy run-time royalty fee." https://books.google.com/books?id=jVAEAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA16&dq=digitalk%2Fv%20windows&pg=PA16#v=onepage&q=digitalk/v%20windows&f=false https://books.google.com/books?id=jVAEAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA16&dq=d... Did Turbo ever have it's enterprisey moment?

Rochus 6y ago

> No, if small commercial developers cannot use the language without paying massive fees, you might as well forget any popularity Have you read my answer? There is no reason why you couldn't use FSF GNAT or GPS in closed-source projects. > Heck, you couldn't even use Ada for non-GPL open source programs. Why not? The GPL GNAT with RLE allows you to use any licence with your application, whether closed or open-source. > Because Smalltalk vendors have a long history of doing the same pricing that made it impractical to impossible for the little guy to use the language. There were always free ST versions as far as I can remember. The "little guy" could e.g. use "Little Smalltalk" by Budd which appeared before 1987.

igouy 6y ago
> There is no reason why you couldn't use FSF GNAT or GPS in closed-source projects. But there is Fear Uncertainty & Doubt.
- Rochus 6y ago
  Although we have the Enlightenment behind us, there is still superstition. There is nothing I can do about that.
  - igouy 6y ago
    You inform those who are open to being better informed.
    - Rochus 6y ago
      Well, obviously with moderate success ;-)
protomyth 6y ago
First the last, There were always free ST versions as far as I can remember. The "little guy" could e.g. use "Little Smalltalk" by Budd which appeared before 1987. No one could write a commercial program with Little Smalltalk. Love the book, but the implementation is not going to work. Heck, Squeak could not do a program that looked anything like a real Windows or Mac program. Maybe we're talking past each other but the IDE says the community edition is only authorized for GPL software, every other edition is big bucks. https://www.adacore.com/gnatpro/comparison https://www.adacore.com/gnatpro/comparison
- Rochus 6y ago
  Well, if you were willing to spend 60$ you could buy a Smalltalk package suited for commercial applications which looked somehow like Windows. But that's not the topic here anyway. > Maybe we're talking past each other but the IDE says the community edition is only authorized for GPL software, every other edition is big bucks. Do not let this mislead you. The software is available under GPL. That is all you need to know. And GPL allows you to use the software for any purpose. Maybe I should mention that I studied law for two years and then had one more year of lectures in patent and license contract law (see my profile for more information).
  - protomyth 6y ago
    Ok, no. Look at the GPL interaction with App Stores. GPL has been debated on HN forever.
    - Rochus 6y ago
      I do not understand what you are trying to say. I also don't understand what the current topic of conversation has to do with App Stores.

igouy 6y ago

March 7, 1988 — "Smalltalk/V 286 is available now and costs $199.95, the company said. Registered users of Digitalk's Smalltalk/V can upgrade for $75 until June 1." https://books.google.com/books?id=CD8EAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA25&ots=jiXJNN0ii3&dq=digitalk%20v%2F286&pg=PA25#v=onepage&q=digitalk%20v/286&f=false https://books.google.com/books?id=CD8EAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA25&ots=...

protomyth 6y ago
which quickly became Visual Smalltalk Enterprise, which you can ask various companies about how that went commercially.
- igouy 6y ago
  Factually, October 22 1989 — "… an OS/2 version of the Smalltalk language, Smalltalk V/PM … The $500 product is designed to cut the time it takes to prototype user-interface-intensive applications for Presentation Manager." https://www.cbronline.com/news/digitalk_has_first_compiled_version_of_smalltalk_for_os2/ https://www.cbronline.com/news/digitalk_has_first_compiled_v...
  - protomyth 6y ago
    OS/2 didn't move the needle for anyone. Smalltalk V evolved into an unsupported, expensive Smalltalk. Smalltalk never had its Turbo moment.
    - igouy 6y ago
      15 July 1991 — "The package costs $499.95. Registered users of earlier versions of Smalltalk/V Windows can upgrade for $25. … Digital's Smalltalk/V Macintosh will continue to cost $199.95, but eliminates the previous per copy run-time royalty fee." https://books.google.com/books?id=jVAEAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA16&dq=digitalk%2Fv%20windows&pg=PA16#v=onepage&q=digitalk/v%20windows&f=false https://books.google.com/books?id=jVAEAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA16&dq=d... Did Turbo ever have it's enterprisey moment?