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There's an interesting book about encounters with the entities: DMT Dialogues: Encounters with the Spirit Molecule ( https://b-ok.cc/book/3688170/74a672 https

There's an interesting book about encounters with the entities: DMT Dialogues: Encounters with the Spirit Molecule ( https://b-ok.cc/book/3688170/74a672 https://b-ok.cc/book/3688170/74a672 ) It really does seem like there's whole other levels/dimensions of reality and these things are real and independent of the person.

disposekinetics 6y ago
There are two competing theories: There exists another dimension that can only be accessed during hallucination, or people hallucinating hallucinate. One of these requires fewer assumptions.
- jakeva 6y ago
  I know what you're saying, and agree. But I think it's worth pointing out that the explanation of "people hallucinating hallucinate" doesn't end the conversation. Can you answer the question of "what is a hallucination?" with still fewer assumptions? Maybe you can, but I think if you're acting in good faith you'll find you have to discuss the nature of consciousness and its relationship with the natural world. Now, this may still come to a simpler explanation than one involving extra dimensions but I think it's a lot more complex than "people hallucinating hallucinate" if you're being fair in your investigation.
  - hackinthebochs 6y ago
    >Can you answer the question of "what is a hallucination?" with still fewer assumptions? Not the OP, but I think google's deep dream provides a nice analog to the process of hallucination that goes on within us on psychedelic drugs. Essentially our brains are wired to detect certain patterns in the world; our neural wiring is isomorphic to the structure found in the world. What these drugs do is increase the excitability of some neural structures, which structures are excited correspond to the kinds of experiences different psychedelics induce. The fact that DMT seems to universally induce encounters with "entities" suggests the areas of the brain that are excited.
    - jakeva 6y ago
      Yeah, that's true but still doesn't really explain a hallucination. It's like seeing an infrared video of a complex machine like a car. Ok, so the main heat seems to happen in the front part. Does that explain it? As one who has hallucinated intensely, the experience is not just about what your senses create for you while certain neural structures are excited. Often times it's about what is left when your senses have gone off the deep end. For many it's a deeply spiritual experience, some experience a total ego death. Others experience lifetimes in different bodies, working jobs and having families that never existed here. So while it's interesting to know something about what the neurons are doing, I don't think that gets us any closer to an explanation.
      - hackinthebochs 6y ago
        But none of those things you cite are intrinsically outside of neural structures. To be clear, explaining a hallucination doesn't require that one explains consciousness. Consciousness is a background assumption. But given consciousness, hallucinations are merely abnormal patterns of neural excitations, some of which influence conscious experiences. What is "left over" after a psychedelic experience could be due to new memories that give one a fresh interpretation on typical experiences, or new connections made in the brain from the over excited state that induces new patterns of thinking.
        jakeva 6y ago
        But you don't actually _know_ none of the things I've cited are intrinsically outside of neural structures. Nobody actually _knows_, except the very religious. It might be a reasonable assumption, but at that level I'm not sure it's simpler an assumption than that there are things about the universe we don't understand that many naively file under "extra dimensions". If you want to compare two explanations for the experiences of one who is hallucinating where one invokes extra "dimensions", and the other invokes "hallucinations mean you hallucinate", and you want to say one is obviously simpler than the other, from a certain perspective you might be right but from where I sit you're leaving a lot of potential discussion on the table.
- ericmcer 6y ago
  Well one day we all die. Leading up to that we live in a world that exists entirely in the space between our ears. I kinda wanna believe in a dimension full of benevolent machine elves that we are linked to spiritually.
  - butwheniknow 6y ago
    A cloud-castle ...a sequel -Oh wait, I forgot, this is just for entertainment purposes, right? And doing nothing makes us the greatest traitors of all time, not? (-;
pvarangot 6y ago
There exist collective hallucinations, and some people say the biggest one of all is what most people agree to call reality. These things people see on psychedelic experiences are not completely dependent on the person but are also not the same for everyone, like most things we perceive with our other senses.
- xpaqui 6y ago
  If there are collective hallucinations then some of these article theories don't work. How can there be a personal entity and a shared one.
  - pvarangot 6y ago
    I may convince you that my personal entity is real and then you'll see it and it's not personal anymore. It's like religions work only that everyone gets to have their own religious experience and it's not only a matter of ego-driven debate.

disposekinetics 6y ago

There are two competing theories: There exists another dimension that can only be accessed during hallucination, or people hallucinating hallucinate. One of these requires fewer assumptions.

jakeva 6y ago
I know what you're saying, and agree. But I think it's worth pointing out that the explanation of "people hallucinating hallucinate" doesn't end the conversation. Can you answer the question of "what is a hallucination?" with still fewer assumptions? Maybe you can, but I think if you're acting in good faith you'll find you have to discuss the nature of consciousness and its relationship with the natural world. Now, this may still come to a simpler explanation than one involving extra dimensions but I think it's a lot more complex than "people hallucinating hallucinate" if you're being fair in your investigation.
- hackinthebochs 6y ago
  >Can you answer the question of "what is a hallucination?" with still fewer assumptions? Not the OP, but I think google's deep dream provides a nice analog to the process of hallucination that goes on within us on psychedelic drugs. Essentially our brains are wired to detect certain patterns in the world; our neural wiring is isomorphic to the structure found in the world. What these drugs do is increase the excitability of some neural structures, which structures are excited correspond to the kinds of experiences different psychedelics induce. The fact that DMT seems to universally induce encounters with "entities" suggests the areas of the brain that are excited.
  - jakeva 6y ago
    Yeah, that's true but still doesn't really explain a hallucination. It's like seeing an infrared video of a complex machine like a car. Ok, so the main heat seems to happen in the front part. Does that explain it? As one who has hallucinated intensely, the experience is not just about what your senses create for you while certain neural structures are excited. Often times it's about what is left when your senses have gone off the deep end. For many it's a deeply spiritual experience, some experience a total ego death. Others experience lifetimes in different bodies, working jobs and having families that never existed here. So while it's interesting to know something about what the neurons are doing, I don't think that gets us any closer to an explanation.
    - hackinthebochs 6y ago
      But none of those things you cite are intrinsically outside of neural structures. To be clear, explaining a hallucination doesn't require that one explains consciousness. Consciousness is a background assumption. But given consciousness, hallucinations are merely abnormal patterns of neural excitations, some of which influence conscious experiences. What is "left over" after a psychedelic experience could be due to new memories that give one a fresh interpretation on typical experiences, or new connections made in the brain from the over excited state that induces new patterns of thinking.
      - jakeva 6y ago
        But you don't actually _know_ none of the things I've cited are intrinsically outside of neural structures. Nobody actually _knows_, except the very religious. It might be a reasonable assumption, but at that level I'm not sure it's simpler an assumption than that there are things about the universe we don't understand that many naively file under "extra dimensions". If you want to compare two explanations for the experiences of one who is hallucinating where one invokes extra "dimensions", and the other invokes "hallucinations mean you hallucinate", and you want to say one is obviously simpler than the other, from a certain perspective you might be right but from where I sit you're leaving a lot of potential discussion on the table.
ericmcer 6y ago
Well one day we all die. Leading up to that we live in a world that exists entirely in the space between our ears. I kinda wanna believe in a dimension full of benevolent machine elves that we are linked to spiritually.
- butwheniknow 6y ago
  A cloud-castle ...a sequel -Oh wait, I forgot, this is just for entertainment purposes, right? And doing nothing makes us the greatest traitors of all time, not? (-;

pvarangot 6y ago

There exist collective hallucinations, and some people say the biggest one of all is what most people agree to call reality. These things people see on psychedelic experiences are not completely dependent on the person but are also not the same for everyone, like most things we perceive with our other senses.

xpaqui 6y ago
If there are collective hallucinations then some of these article theories don't work. How can there be a personal entity and a shared one.
- pvarangot 6y ago
  I may convince you that my personal entity is real and then you'll see it and it's not personal anymore. It's like religions work only that everyone gets to have their own religious experience and it's not only a matter of ego-driven debate.