5 ms·

> I would personally like to continue paying higher prices to protect myself from low-quality background-syncing byte-code-obfuscated web-pages with push notifi

> I would personally like to continue paying higher prices to protect myself from low-quality background-syncing byte-code-obfuscated web-pages with push notifications are you really saying you would pay higher prices because you can' t press the "no" button and never visit the same website again?

scarface74 6y ago
Along with every time I have to press OK to the “we used cookies” dialog, using the web is already like a “punch the monkey” game.
- spideymans 6y ago
  These modern web APIs have a massive user experience problem, and if we want the web to be truly competitive with native, we'd be foolish to ignore that. Beyond the "punch the monkey" game you mention, another massive problem is that web push notifications have just become another vector to deliver spam to users. If you look at devices belonging to "normal" users, you'll often see dozens of spammy web notifications (pornographic content, "30% off, BUY NOW", etc...). And because these are average users, they don't necessarily understand how to configure their devices to reduce or eliminate the spam. Web push notifications needs a way to proactively filter out those that abuse the API, otherwise its doomed to become just another vector for spam that pisses off end users.
- romanoderoma 6y ago
  I'm angry at Firefox because it was the only browser that I trust that allowed me to have extensions to solve my problems with bad websites on mobile and they removed them. But bad websites are not something we are going to get rid of using only iPhones...
  - scarface74 6y ago
    The difference is that notification spam on the web is allowed to escape the sandbox. Because of the punch the monkey nature of the web, I inadvertently clicked “allow notifications” on both PCWorld and Tom’s Hardware on different occasions - they both spammed me at least once a day. But not enough to figure out how to disable it. To get rid of the cookie notifications, I can at least set web pages I go to default to reader view.
    - romanoderoma 6y ago
      I never accept web notifications, not even on slack. The problem is that if Apple singlehandedly decide what's right and what isn't we are back to IE.
      - scarface74 6y ago
        There is a middle ground I would be okay with. A website is only allowed to ask you if want notifications if you added it to your home screen. If you delete the web page from your home screen, it automatically disabled the notification. It falls within the same paradigm that people are accustomed to.
        romanoderoma 6y ago
        AFAIK this is not the way Safari works and it's not the main motivation for Apple They just don't want web apps to rival with the native ones skipping the whole store experience and fee But that's just speculation on my side, I have no data to back it up
        scarface74 6y ago
        This makes no sense. As I said in another reply. If PWAs are so great, why aren’t companies bypassing creating Android apps and just telling Android users to use web apps? On top of that, how many apps are really just surfacing server hosted services where there are no in app purchases?
        romanoderoma 6y ago
        According to the data I found, PWAs make 50% of the Android market. Among the most popular there are - Uber - Pinterest - Telegram - Trivago - Tinder - Google maps Go - AliExpress
        scarface74 6y ago
mirthflat83 6y ago
Yes. I don’t want to press the “no” button for a 100 times.
- romanoderoma 6y ago
  You should lobby W3C to remove the API from the standard then. Or ask browser vendors to have a global allow/deny flag for every Web API
  - spideymans 6y ago
    I don't know if you're being sarcastic or not, but here's the thing: I don't want websites asking me to enable notifications. 99.9% of the time, the answer is no. I don't want websites asking me to enable location access. 99.9% of the time, the answer is NO. Nor do I want them asking for permissions to install to my Home Screen (the answer is no), or to track me (the answer is NO). >Or ask browser vendors to have a global allow/deny flag for every Web API When possible, I've carefully configured my browser to automatically reject these requests, but instead of respecting that, these websites, with all their hubris, have chosen to circumvent my preferences by presenting shitty JS-based permission requests (as opposed to using the permissions UI built into the browser). Each one of these new web APIs have significantly degraded my experience as an end user, by presenting a million permission dialogs whenever I'm visiting webpages, without providing me with any features of value (again, because I'm not ever, ever gonna trust some random website with these permissions). Users don't care to pontificate about the virtues of the open web, they just want their stuff to work. And until the open web can provide a better user experience, of course users are going to flock to various walled gardens (App Stores, Facebook, etc...). Until we find a way to implement web standards elegantly, without degrading the user experience, the open web is always going to face an uphill battle over the relative safety of walled gardens.
    - romanoderoma 6y ago
      I think nobody wants web notifications, but the API is in the standard. I know I don't want them. Apple is in the committee. https://www.w3.org/Consortium/Member/List https://www.w3.org/Consortium/Member/List
baddox 6y ago
Yes, absolutely! Just like I'd rather pay for Apple Arcade so that I don't have to wade through the sewage of free-to-play games clicking "no" on in-app purchase requests and hiding spammy notifications. Just like I'd rather pay for streaming services with no ads rather than having to mute commercials on live TV or skip commercials on DVR'd TV. It's not absurd to me to pay for platforms that attempt to preemptively remove filth rather than need to be on the constant lookout for filth. This is particularly true when most of these entire ecosystems (the web, app stores, video content) seem to be based on sneaking filth in front of your eyes at every available opportunity.
- romanoderoma 6y ago
  Web notifications are a standard feature, meaning the APIs are in the web standard. Making an hyperbole here, but wouldn't Mosaic 1993 edition solve every issue then?
  - baddox 6y ago
    Reasonable people can disagree about which features are and are not useful. And those reasonable people can purchase smartphones and computers which best cater to their own views about these features.
    - romanoderoma 6y ago
      True, but reasonable people that know about web notifications API are less than 1% of Apple customers...
      - baddox 6y ago
        That sounds like a great reason to not let every trashy website in the world to spam them asking if they want to enable notifications.
        romanoderoma 6y ago

scarface74 6y ago

Along with every time I have to press OK to the “we used cookies” dialog, using the web is already like a “punch the monkey” game.

spideymans 6y ago
These modern web APIs have a massive user experience problem, and if we want the web to be truly competitive with native, we'd be foolish to ignore that. Beyond the "punch the monkey" game you mention, another massive problem is that web push notifications have just become another vector to deliver spam to users. If you look at devices belonging to "normal" users, you'll often see dozens of spammy web notifications (pornographic content, "30% off, BUY NOW", etc...). And because these are average users, they don't necessarily understand how to configure their devices to reduce or eliminate the spam. Web push notifications needs a way to proactively filter out those that abuse the API, otherwise its doomed to become just another vector for spam that pisses off end users.
romanoderoma 6y ago
I'm angry at Firefox because it was the only browser that I trust that allowed me to have extensions to solve my problems with bad websites on mobile and they removed them. But bad websites are not something we are going to get rid of using only iPhones...
- scarface74 6y ago
  The difference is that notification spam on the web is allowed to escape the sandbox. Because of the punch the monkey nature of the web, I inadvertently clicked “allow notifications” on both PCWorld and Tom’s Hardware on different occasions - they both spammed me at least once a day. But not enough to figure out how to disable it. To get rid of the cookie notifications, I can at least set web pages I go to default to reader view.
  - romanoderoma 6y ago
    I never accept web notifications, not even on slack. The problem is that if Apple singlehandedly decide what's right and what isn't we are back to IE.
    - scarface74 6y ago
      There is a middle ground I would be okay with. A website is only allowed to ask you if want notifications if you added it to your home screen. If you delete the web page from your home screen, it automatically disabled the notification. It falls within the same paradigm that people are accustomed to.
      - romanoderoma 6y ago
        AFAIK this is not the way Safari works and it's not the main motivation for Apple They just don't want web apps to rival with the native ones skipping the whole store experience and fee But that's just speculation on my side, I have no data to back it up
        scarface74 6y ago
        This makes no sense. As I said in another reply. If PWAs are so great, why aren’t companies bypassing creating Android apps and just telling Android users to use web apps? On top of that, how many apps are really just surfacing server hosted services where there are no in app purchases?
        romanoderoma 6y ago
        According to the data I found, PWAs make 50% of the Android market. Among the most popular there are - Uber - Pinterest - Telegram - Trivago - Tinder - Google maps Go - AliExpress
        scarface74 6y ago

mirthflat83 6y ago

Yes. I don’t want to press the “no” button for a 100 times.

romanoderoma 6y ago
You should lobby W3C to remove the API from the standard then. Or ask browser vendors to have a global allow/deny flag for every Web API
- spideymans 6y ago
  I don't know if you're being sarcastic or not, but here's the thing: I don't want websites asking me to enable notifications. 99.9% of the time, the answer is no. I don't want websites asking me to enable location access. 99.9% of the time, the answer is NO. Nor do I want them asking for permissions to install to my Home Screen (the answer is no), or to track me (the answer is NO). >Or ask browser vendors to have a global allow/deny flag for every Web API When possible, I've carefully configured my browser to automatically reject these requests, but instead of respecting that, these websites, with all their hubris, have chosen to circumvent my preferences by presenting shitty JS-based permission requests (as opposed to using the permissions UI built into the browser). Each one of these new web APIs have significantly degraded my experience as an end user, by presenting a million permission dialogs whenever I'm visiting webpages, without providing me with any features of value (again, because I'm not ever, ever gonna trust some random website with these permissions). Users don't care to pontificate about the virtues of the open web, they just want their stuff to work. And until the open web can provide a better user experience, of course users are going to flock to various walled gardens (App Stores, Facebook, etc...). Until we find a way to implement web standards elegantly, without degrading the user experience, the open web is always going to face an uphill battle over the relative safety of walled gardens.
  - romanoderoma 6y ago
    I think nobody wants web notifications, but the API is in the standard. I know I don't want them. Apple is in the committee. https://www.w3.org/Consortium/Member/List https://www.w3.org/Consortium/Member/List

baddox 6y ago

Yes, absolutely! Just like I'd rather pay for Apple Arcade so that I don't have to wade through the sewage of free-to-play games clicking "no" on in-app purchase requests and hiding spammy notifications. Just like I'd rather pay for streaming services with no ads rather than having to mute commercials on live TV or skip commercials on DVR'd TV. It's not absurd to me to pay for platforms that attempt to preemptively remove filth rather than need to be on the constant lookout for filth. This is particularly true when most of these entire ecosystems (the web, app stores, video content) seem to be based on sneaking filth in front of your eyes at every available opportunity.

romanoderoma 6y ago
Web notifications are a standard feature, meaning the APIs are in the web standard. Making an hyperbole here, but wouldn't Mosaic 1993 edition solve every issue then?
- baddox 6y ago
  Reasonable people can disagree about which features are and are not useful. And those reasonable people can purchase smartphones and computers which best cater to their own views about these features.
  - romanoderoma 6y ago
    True, but reasonable people that know about web notifications API are less than 1% of Apple customers...
    - baddox 6y ago
      That sounds like a great reason to not let every trashy website in the world to spam them asking if they want to enable notifications.
      - romanoderoma 6y ago