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This is probably going to earn me a mountain of downvotes and rebukes (all of which I welcome so that I can learn!), but here goes nothing... I'm fairly convin

This is probably going to earn me a mountain of downvotes and rebukes (all of which I welcome so that I can learn!), but here goes nothing... I'm fairly convinced that a lot of technical people are on the spectrum. I don't mean this as an insult in any way whatsoever, though I'm sure many will take it as such (sorry, in advance!). The raw, calculative persona of those described as "10x developers" and "optimize all minutiae" seems to line up with having difficulty empathizing with others and acknowledging emotions. In many ways, I really envy the ability to execute to that degree. Simultaneously, I think these are many of the same people who are taken advantage of by others (e.g. founders, managers, investors) to further deepen their pockets. They're often immensely talented in technical realms and excel in sciences, making computer science and software careers ideal places where they can thrive. Their relative over-performance creates a tension on the opposite end where others can't keep up to the same capacity. I think we've often chalked it up to people being "quirky" and I think we're all familiar with Hollywood's stereotypes about technical folk, but there is a lack of mental health discussion in the US (and perhaps other places in the west). Am I completely off-base in thinking this way? I'm certainly no psychologist, but I welcome other perspectives on this.

mkarliner 6y ago
You are spot on. I've said this for years. Which is why I always hire people not roles.
bserge 6y ago
I think this is a pretty popular opinion, tbh. Successful people tend to have some sort of mental disorder, or rather, advantage.
onion2k 6y ago
I'm fairly convinced that a lot of technical people are on the spectrum. It's a spectrum. Everyone is on it. The majority of people are at the end where it doesn't really manifest in any significant way, but no one can claim not to be on it.
vmception 6y ago
I think there is something to this. I score very high on emotional intelligence, am fashionable, do extroverted things. People like that I do these things and also have ideas that I can turn into money quickly by programming them. That I can communicate ideas to less technical people and gain supporters quickly. I pass. But I can detect the limits. Nobody considers me on the spectrum, nobody considers me the “asperger-y programmer” There is some overlap with what people associate as “on the spectrum” such as not relating to many people’s emotions or reactions to things. Blending in. But for me the real flag is my experience with various drugs, my experience is often different than others and forums full of anecdotal evidence has people with similar experiences who often report having diagnosed development disorders such as ADHD, autism etc. Anytime I bring this up “I think I’m on the spectrum”, people are quick to tell me “we’re all somewhere on the spectrum”, as if they want to make an excuse for me. At the same time, an ability to focus on a task is normal to me. To me, I procrastinate just like everyone else. But I also have results and turn ideas into money in weeks. I have no idea why other people deliberate for months and years on ideas and promises, why they even covet and get married to ideas. I surround myself with people that challenge me, I know there are plenty of people that do execute even faster than I without a better pedigree or network. It feels like success at this game is what people want, but then also is optimized for “high functioning autistic sociopaths“ and if you are winning at this game that so many people want to win, you’re also likely a high functioning version of someone with a developmental disorder? Its easy for it not to be mutually exclusive, but it makes me think.
Apocryphon 6y ago
I think what you're describing is a bit tangential to the OP. Yes, some of what's ascribed to as "tech startup culture" can be derived from neuroatypical people, or introversion, or simply lack of social grace, but not a lot of it as described by the article. The article talks a lot about the extroverted, obnoxious aspects of tech. Wantrepreneurs, narcissistic navel-gazing, cargo-culting, corporate faux-coolness, dick-waving. None of that is really explained by having a lot of people on the spectrum. If anything, it's similar to some of the same extravagance you see in Hollywood, Wall Street, or Washington D.C.; anywhere that has a ton of ambitious, competitive, and social signaling people. Also, there are plenty of STEM and otherwise technical fields that do not have the same reputation for awkwardness as software engineering does. Surely those fields have plenty of single-minded overperformers as well? Then why don't we hear complaints about civil engineering or mechanical engineering or electrical engineering? I have a couple of pet theories for why Silicon Valley or the startup world as a whole seems particularly arrogant (a culture that worships young genius ends up neglecting social development and get stuck being sophomoric; software spawns a weird exceptionalism since, unlike other engineering disciplines, devs can move the world with lines of code instead of hardware). But those are just pet theories and I think most of the issues mentioned in the OP are easily attributed to the natural consequence when an industry undergoes a gold rush AND eats the world; since it becomes a playground for the (potentially) rich and powerful, insiders tend to get extra irritating about it.
EvilEy3 6y ago
> I'm fairly convinced that a lot of sports people are on the spectrum. I don't mean this as an insult in any way whatsoever, though I'm sure many will take it as such (sorry, in advance!). The raw, calculative persona of those described as "10x sportsman" and "optimize all muscleai" seems to line up with having difficulty empathizing with others and acknowledging emotions. In many ways, I really envy the ability to execute to that degree. Simultaneously, I think these are many of the same people who are taken advantage of by others (e.g. founders, managers, investors) to further deepen their pockets. They're often immensely talented in physical realms and excel in sports, making sport careers ideal places where they can thrive. Their relative over-performance creates a tension on the opposite end where others can't keep up to the same capacity. I think we've often chalked it up to people being "quirky" and I think we're all familiar with Hollywood's stereotypes about sports folk, but there is a lack of mental health discussion in the US (and perhaps other places in the west). Am I completely off-base in thinking this way? I'm certainly no psychologist, but I welcome other perspectives on this.
- TheOtherHobbes 6y ago
  The difference is sports people don't really run anything. They sport. In a closed environment. Software and start-ups are more like having to sports whatever you do, whether you like it or not. Buy take-out? Pick up your sportsy phone and sports the heck out of that! Don't forget to tip your driver, because he's on minimum wage. Order an airline ticket? So fast and sportsy! OK, so someone didn't sports properly and some of these planes crashed, but let's just [cough] pretend the pilots made mistakes. Find somewhere to stay? Your accommodation choices have been so uniformly sportsed you'll get a properly sportsed touch of local flavour, but you'll be spared any unsettling cultural surprises. Chat to friends? We've totally sportsed that up for you! So now everything you do has been completely sportsed by people who just love sportsing. And this is good for you. And for everyone. And especially good for the future. No, really, it is.
edem 6y ago
I think you're right. You don't necessarily have to be on the spectrum though. It is enough if you can turn your empathy off to maintain the laser focus. Or you can be a psychopath, then you can go on to become a CEO!
Udik 6y ago
Of course they (we) are "on the spectrum". And it used to be fine- there were places for different people to excel well shielded from the others. Tech and science were always places for cold, unempathetic people more interested in things than in how others feel about them. Until everything became a social media magma in which everyone is more interested in how much empathy you can show towards puppies than in how good you are at your job. Fuck that. I'll say it again for clarity: tech and university used to be cosy places for unconventional people to be at their best shielded from those who mix their facts with their feelings. But now these have taken over and the feelings police is everywhere.
hooande 6y ago
"nerds are socially awkward" is an observation that borders on being trite. There's a lot of truth to that of course, just because of the definition of the term "nerd". But it's something that sounds true as opposed to actually being a valid way of seeing the world. It's like saying "athletes are dumb". There is a sort of truth to that, but anyone can easily come up a dozen counterexamples. The same is true of technical people and social skills. It can be valuable to use a short hand for personalities to quickly sort people into categories. But almost every occupation has the same general range of personality types.
mercer 6y ago
There's definitely something to what you're saying, but I think in relation to the article/discussion, it's more about young people than it is about specifically people on the spectrum. My impression is that as programming, being nerdy, and so on, became main-stream, the target audience for the founders/managers/investors has become much broader. I know a number of decidedly non-autistic people who I feel are used by this 'startup culture' to do stuff that isn't in their own best interest. If anything, I'd say that generally people on the spectrum would be /less/ likely to get caught up in these types of schemes. It's just that for a while in history the stuff that these people gravitated to was also the stuff that was easy to make money off.
rv-de 6y ago
I second that - I often felt like stuck in a hopeless competition against people who really have 100% of their mind to spare on aspects of technology while my brain is scattered all over the place with regard to interests and hobbies. How am I supposed to compete against somebody who'll happily spend his leisure time with even more coding while I can't wait to do something else for a change. And it is a competition because those people thrive on the positive feedback they get at work and crave for it with a vengeance.

mkarliner 6y ago

You are spot on. I've said this for years. Which is why I always hire people not roles.

bserge 6y ago

I think this is a pretty popular opinion, tbh. Successful people tend to have some sort of mental disorder, or rather, advantage.

onion2k 6y ago

I'm fairly convinced that a lot of technical people are on the spectrum. It's a spectrum. Everyone is on it. The majority of people are at the end where it doesn't really manifest in any significant way, but no one can claim not to be on it.

vmception 6y ago

I think there is something to this. I score very high on emotional intelligence, am fashionable, do extroverted things. People like that I do these things and also have ideas that I can turn into money quickly by programming them. That I can communicate ideas to less technical people and gain supporters quickly. I pass. But I can detect the limits. Nobody considers me on the spectrum, nobody considers me the “asperger-y programmer” There is some overlap with what people associate as “on the spectrum” such as not relating to many people’s emotions or reactions to things. Blending in. But for me the real flag is my experience with various drugs, my experience is often different than others and forums full of anecdotal evidence has people with similar experiences who often report having diagnosed development disorders such as ADHD, autism etc. Anytime I bring this up “I think I’m on the spectrum”, people are quick to tell me “we’re all somewhere on the spectrum”, as if they want to make an excuse for me. At the same time, an ability to focus on a task is normal to me. To me, I procrastinate just like everyone else. But I also have results and turn ideas into money in weeks. I have no idea why other people deliberate for months and years on ideas and promises, why they even covet and get married to ideas. I surround myself with people that challenge me, I know there are plenty of people that do execute even faster than I without a better pedigree or network. It feels like success at this game is what people want, but then also is optimized for “high functioning autistic sociopaths“ and if you are winning at this game that so many people want to win, you’re also likely a high functioning version of someone with a developmental disorder? Its easy for it not to be mutually exclusive, but it makes me think.

Apocryphon 6y ago

I think what you're describing is a bit tangential to the OP. Yes, some of what's ascribed to as "tech startup culture" can be derived from neuroatypical people, or introversion, or simply lack of social grace, but not a lot of it as described by the article. The article talks a lot about the extroverted, obnoxious aspects of tech. Wantrepreneurs, narcissistic navel-gazing, cargo-culting, corporate faux-coolness, dick-waving. None of that is really explained by having a lot of people on the spectrum. If anything, it's similar to some of the same extravagance you see in Hollywood, Wall Street, or Washington D.C.; anywhere that has a ton of ambitious, competitive, and social signaling people. Also, there are plenty of STEM and otherwise technical fields that do not have the same reputation for awkwardness as software engineering does. Surely those fields have plenty of single-minded overperformers as well? Then why don't we hear complaints about civil engineering or mechanical engineering or electrical engineering? I have a couple of pet theories for why Silicon Valley or the startup world as a whole seems particularly arrogant (a culture that worships young genius ends up neglecting social development and get stuck being sophomoric; software spawns a weird exceptionalism since, unlike other engineering disciplines, devs can move the world with lines of code instead of hardware). But those are just pet theories and I think most of the issues mentioned in the OP are easily attributed to the natural consequence when an industry undergoes a gold rush AND eats the world; since it becomes a playground for the (potentially) rich and powerful, insiders tend to get extra irritating about it.

EvilEy3 6y ago

> I'm fairly convinced that a lot of sports people are on the spectrum. I don't mean this as an insult in any way whatsoever, though I'm sure many will take it as such (sorry, in advance!). The raw, calculative persona of those described as "10x sportsman" and "optimize all muscleai" seems to line up with having difficulty empathizing with others and acknowledging emotions. In many ways, I really envy the ability to execute to that degree. Simultaneously, I think these are many of the same people who are taken advantage of by others (e.g. founders, managers, investors) to further deepen their pockets. They're often immensely talented in physical realms and excel in sports, making sport careers ideal places where they can thrive. Their relative over-performance creates a tension on the opposite end where others can't keep up to the same capacity. I think we've often chalked it up to people being "quirky" and I think we're all familiar with Hollywood's stereotypes about sports folk, but there is a lack of mental health discussion in the US (and perhaps other places in the west). Am I completely off-base in thinking this way? I'm certainly no psychologist, but I welcome other perspectives on this.

TheOtherHobbes 6y ago
The difference is sports people don't really run anything. They sport. In a closed environment. Software and start-ups are more like having to sports whatever you do, whether you like it or not. Buy take-out? Pick up your sportsy phone and sports the heck out of that! Don't forget to tip your driver, because he's on minimum wage. Order an airline ticket? So fast and sportsy! OK, so someone didn't sports properly and some of these planes crashed, but let's just [cough] pretend the pilots made mistakes. Find somewhere to stay? Your accommodation choices have been so uniformly sportsed you'll get a properly sportsed touch of local flavour, but you'll be spared any unsettling cultural surprises. Chat to friends? We've totally sportsed that up for you! So now everything you do has been completely sportsed by people who just love sportsing. And this is good for you. And for everyone. And especially good for the future. No, really, it is.

edem 6y ago

I think you're right. You don't necessarily have to be on the spectrum though. It is enough if you can turn your empathy off to maintain the laser focus. Or you can be a psychopath, then you can go on to become a CEO!

Udik 6y ago

Of course they (we) are "on the spectrum". And it used to be fine- there were places for different people to excel well shielded from the others. Tech and science were always places for cold, unempathetic people more interested in things than in how others feel about them. Until everything became a social media magma in which everyone is more interested in how much empathy you can show towards puppies than in how good you are at your job. Fuck that. I'll say it again for clarity: tech and university used to be cosy places for unconventional people to be at their best shielded from those who mix their facts with their feelings. But now these have taken over and the feelings police is everywhere.

hooande 6y ago

"nerds are socially awkward" is an observation that borders on being trite. There's a lot of truth to that of course, just because of the definition of the term "nerd". But it's something that sounds true as opposed to actually being a valid way of seeing the world. It's like saying "athletes are dumb". There is a sort of truth to that, but anyone can easily come up a dozen counterexamples. The same is true of technical people and social skills. It can be valuable to use a short hand for personalities to quickly sort people into categories. But almost every occupation has the same general range of personality types.

mercer 6y ago

There's definitely something to what you're saying, but I think in relation to the article/discussion, it's more about young people than it is about specifically people on the spectrum. My impression is that as programming, being nerdy, and so on, became main-stream, the target audience for the founders/managers/investors has become much broader. I know a number of decidedly non-autistic people who I feel are used by this 'startup culture' to do stuff that isn't in their own best interest. If anything, I'd say that generally people on the spectrum would be /less/ likely to get caught up in these types of schemes. It's just that for a while in history the stuff that these people gravitated to was also the stuff that was easy to make money off.

rv-de 6y ago

I second that - I often felt like stuck in a hopeless competition against people who really have 100% of their mind to spare on aspects of technology while my brain is scattered all over the place with regard to interests and hobbies. How am I supposed to compete against somebody who'll happily spend his leisure time with even more coding while I can't wait to do something else for a change. And it is a competition because those people thrive on the positive feedback they get at work and crave for it with a vengeance.