4 ms·

As a European who also worked a year in the US, it's starling how utterly _byzantine_ everything related to operating a business in the US is. Why in the everlo

As a European who also worked a year in the US, it's starling how utterly _byzantine_ everything related to operating a business in the US is. Why in the everloving world would I need a lawyer that should be an extremly simple process? Forming an equivalent to a LLC in the majority of EU is a 5-10 step web form signed online, followed by some waiting and a sub 100€ one-time-fee. Furthermore, financial literacy also seem very, very low, almost as if the powers to be maliciously wanted to misinform people. "You get taxed on profits, not on revenue" seems like the fundamental axiom of business, yet here it is, present as "this one weird tip the IRS hates". See also "I don't want a raise, it'll put me in a higher tax bracket".

eaenki 6y ago
That’s not even true. Aside from the U.K. and Estonia, I can’t think of an European country where 1) it costs less than $1K to incorporate 2) you can do it online 3) You can DIY Italy, Germany and SwitzerlanD just to pick 3 I’m familiar with, are nothing like U.K./Estonia On the other hand incorporating a C Corp in Delaware costs between $89 and $399 and you can do it online by yourself
- simplyinfinity 6y ago
  In Bulgaria it cost me 50 euros to incorporate using a service :D Edit: yes, it's not entirely online, but it takes half a day to complete
- markvdb 6y ago
  In Belgium, starting an llc will set you back: - about 90€ for registering yourself individually as an economic operator - about 275€ in state fees for the llc - 50€ for activating your VAT number - about 1000€ excluding VAT in legalised robbe^^^notary fees In all, this is about 1400€ excluding VAT for getting started, excluding accountant or fiscal adviser fees. Then there is the yearly social contribution of about 350€, even with zero turnover, and more, before you have booked your first cent of revenue.
- messe 6y ago
  Just chiming in: it's possible to do all of that in Ireland.
- Mutjake 6y ago
  275 € in Finland, when done online (+you’ll need a bank account for the company). AFAIK many people DIY.
  - rendall 6y ago
    I did
- DoingIsLearning 6y ago
  Portugal: - Online (with a citizen ID card reader) - A fully registered Ltd company within an hour (that's the gov marketing slogan) - Costs ~ 360 EUR
- bryanrasmussen 6y ago
  In Denmark the closest to LLC would be an IVS I believe, which is being phased out by 2021. The Danish government values entrepreneurs, especially ones that keep 40,000 DKK in their company bank account.
- davehcker 6y ago
  Can someone comment something regarding Germany please?
  - Xylakant 6y ago
    It depends. For any kind of Limited Liability Company, it cannot be done online, you need to see a notary. Costs and process differ depending on what exactly you want: * Forming a full GmbH will cost around 1000-2000 EUR for lawyer,notary,tax accountant. You strictly speaking don't need lawyer nor tax accountant, but unless you are very familiar with the process, I'd recommend you enlist their services. It will make your life substantially easier. You will also need at least 12500 EUR in cash that will be the founding capital for the GmbH - you'll need to underwrite a security for another 12500 EUR for the rest of the founding capital or just pay a total of 25000 EUR for the founding capital. You can have the new company pay all fees from that founding capital. It's there to be used, you can pay yourself a (reasonable) wage from day one, if you choose to. * Forming a UG is substantially cheaper: Founding capital is at least 1 EUR (though you should have more or you'll bankrupt the new company when it needs to send the first letter), there's form contracts that cover trivial cases (up to 3 shareholders, even distribution of shares, ...) and in the simple cases, all fees and notary costs should be in the low 3 digits. Keep in mind that moving money in to and out of limited liability companies is not trivial, so you should have sufficient founding capital to cover the initial expected expenses. If you don't need the protection of a limited liability company, you can always opt for just freelance status - that's a simple registration at the tax office or, if you're multiple people, form a GbR (either by contract or implicitly, but I would really recommend a written contract). You can then register the business online.
    - jlokier 6y ago
      > Keep in mind that moving money in to and out of limited liability companies is not trivial, so you should have sufficient founding capital to cover the initial expected expenses. Can you not, as an owner or director, loan money to the company to cover initial expenses? In the UK it's common to run a Directors Loan Account. With the DLA you can lend money to the company to start things up, or pay for things personally and claim expense from the company if that's simpler at first (even company formation fees can be claimed like this) which can then sit in the DLA, or use it to borrow (a limited amount) from the company for a short time to smooth over salary/dividend payment planning. You have to be careful to account for each transaction between personal and company, but if you understand that it seems not especially complicated, and certainly doesn't need founding capital. With my recent company the founding capital was £1.
- _31 6y ago
  In the Netherlands it was about €75, filled most of the paperwork out online although we did have to go in to the KVK (Chamber of Commerce) to complete the process.
  - hellofunk 6y ago
    Are you talking about a B.V.?
    - _31 6y ago
      Yeah, I believe it is a B.V.
      - hellofunk 6y ago
        Setting up the B.V. might not cost that much but keeping it compliant with the reporting requirements every year is very expensive in Holland.
  - grenoire 6y ago
    It's €50 right now, but you normally have to spend a bit extra for notary fees to get the share capital notarised.
    - _31 6y ago
      Yeah, 75 was probably all the fees, and I might have been thinking in $USD
- Fiahil 6y ago
  France: "Auto-entrepreneur" status is free. No conditions (and a limitation on how much money you make). "entreprise individuelle" is between 25,34 € and 130 €. SARL and SAS status is ~200 € [0]. For all of them, you can do it yourself and most of them completely online. [0]: https://www.service-public.fr/professionnels-entreprises/vosdroits/F23282 https://www.service-public.fr/professionnels-entreprises/vos...
- mellavora 6y ago
  Well, it depends. Luxembourg initiated the 1 EUR corp, which lets you incorporate as a SARL (a form of LLC) for a pretty low rate. However, the law then requires that you have an external auditor of your company's books, which runs 1.5-3K for a one-man operation doing uncomplicated things. Sole proprietor is easier, and you can do your books yourself, but then the liability is unlimited. I think you'll find many of the southern EU states are similar, the incorporation may be cheap but the accounting is less so.
- jeltz 6y ago
  In Sweden all three are true. It costs less than 200 EUR and you can do it online.
dboreham 6y ago
I suspect you're receiving filtered information (some people have an agenda to prove how bad the government is). You absolutely don't need a lawyer to incorporate. Businesses are registered with the state, not federally, so you're seeing data pertaining to 50 "countries". The lawyer is primarily to prevent you from making what could be costly mistakes but if you don't care about that... I suspect financial literacy is low everywhere.
- jeltz 6y ago
  What costly mistakes? I do not know of anyone in my coubtry who would consult a lawyer when registering a company. They might consult some expert in tax planning but never a lawyer.
codpiece 6y ago
In most states, you can fill out a form provided by the commerce division and you'll be up and running for a small fee. In my state, it's about $35 and one sided sheet of paper application (or file online).
chadash 6y ago
My personal experience is that it costs about $180 to setup in my state (you can do it yourself, but i paid about $50 to an online service that helps with the process) and then about $130/year to maintain. The initial process took about 30 minutes (plus a few days waiting) and the yearly "reports" take about 15 minutes. It's pretty friction-less.
agensaequivocum 6y ago
It's that simple in Arizona with only a $50 filling fee but no annual fee or report required. It's recommend one uses a lawyer to draw up an operating agreement but not required.

eaenki 6y ago

That’s not even true. Aside from the U.K. and Estonia, I can’t think of an European country where 1) it costs less than $1K to incorporate 2) you can do it online 3) You can DIY Italy, Germany and SwitzerlanD just to pick 3 I’m familiar with, are nothing like U.K./Estonia On the other hand incorporating a C Corp in Delaware costs between $89 and $399 and you can do it online by yourself

simplyinfinity 6y ago
In Bulgaria it cost me 50 euros to incorporate using a service :D Edit: yes, it's not entirely online, but it takes half a day to complete
markvdb 6y ago
In Belgium, starting an llc will set you back: - about 90€ for registering yourself individually as an economic operator - about 275€ in state fees for the llc - 50€ for activating your VAT number - about 1000€ excluding VAT in legalised robbe^^^notary fees In all, this is about 1400€ excluding VAT for getting started, excluding accountant or fiscal adviser fees. Then there is the yearly social contribution of about 350€, even with zero turnover, and more, before you have booked your first cent of revenue.
messe 6y ago
Just chiming in: it's possible to do all of that in Ireland.
Mutjake 6y ago
275 € in Finland, when done online (+you’ll need a bank account for the company). AFAIK many people DIY.
- rendall 6y ago
  I did
DoingIsLearning 6y ago
Portugal: - Online (with a citizen ID card reader) - A fully registered Ltd company within an hour (that's the gov marketing slogan) - Costs ~ 360 EUR
bryanrasmussen 6y ago
In Denmark the closest to LLC would be an IVS I believe, which is being phased out by 2021. The Danish government values entrepreneurs, especially ones that keep 40,000 DKK in their company bank account.
davehcker 6y ago
Can someone comment something regarding Germany please?
- Xylakant 6y ago
  It depends. For any kind of Limited Liability Company, it cannot be done online, you need to see a notary. Costs and process differ depending on what exactly you want: * Forming a full GmbH will cost around 1000-2000 EUR for lawyer,notary,tax accountant. You strictly speaking don't need lawyer nor tax accountant, but unless you are very familiar with the process, I'd recommend you enlist their services. It will make your life substantially easier. You will also need at least 12500 EUR in cash that will be the founding capital for the GmbH - you'll need to underwrite a security for another 12500 EUR for the rest of the founding capital or just pay a total of 25000 EUR for the founding capital. You can have the new company pay all fees from that founding capital. It's there to be used, you can pay yourself a (reasonable) wage from day one, if you choose to. * Forming a UG is substantially cheaper: Founding capital is at least 1 EUR (though you should have more or you'll bankrupt the new company when it needs to send the first letter), there's form contracts that cover trivial cases (up to 3 shareholders, even distribution of shares, ...) and in the simple cases, all fees and notary costs should be in the low 3 digits. Keep in mind that moving money in to and out of limited liability companies is not trivial, so you should have sufficient founding capital to cover the initial expected expenses. If you don't need the protection of a limited liability company, you can always opt for just freelance status - that's a simple registration at the tax office or, if you're multiple people, form a GbR (either by contract or implicitly, but I would really recommend a written contract). You can then register the business online.
  - jlokier 6y ago
    > Keep in mind that moving money in to and out of limited liability companies is not trivial, so you should have sufficient founding capital to cover the initial expected expenses. Can you not, as an owner or director, loan money to the company to cover initial expenses? In the UK it's common to run a Directors Loan Account. With the DLA you can lend money to the company to start things up, or pay for things personally and claim expense from the company if that's simpler at first (even company formation fees can be claimed like this) which can then sit in the DLA, or use it to borrow (a limited amount) from the company for a short time to smooth over salary/dividend payment planning. You have to be careful to account for each transaction between personal and company, but if you understand that it seems not especially complicated, and certainly doesn't need founding capital. With my recent company the founding capital was £1.
_31 6y ago
In the Netherlands it was about €75, filled most of the paperwork out online although we did have to go in to the KVK (Chamber of Commerce) to complete the process.
- hellofunk 6y ago
  Are you talking about a B.V.?
  - _31 6y ago
    Yeah, I believe it is a B.V.
    - hellofunk 6y ago
      Setting up the B.V. might not cost that much but keeping it compliant with the reporting requirements every year is very expensive in Holland.
- grenoire 6y ago
  It's €50 right now, but you normally have to spend a bit extra for notary fees to get the share capital notarised.
  - _31 6y ago
    Yeah, 75 was probably all the fees, and I might have been thinking in $USD
Fiahil 6y ago
France: "Auto-entrepreneur" status is free. No conditions (and a limitation on how much money you make). "entreprise individuelle" is between 25,34 € and 130 €. SARL and SAS status is ~200 € [0]. For all of them, you can do it yourself and most of them completely online. [0]: https://www.service-public.fr/professionnels-entreprises/vosdroits/F23282 https://www.service-public.fr/professionnels-entreprises/vos...
mellavora 6y ago
Well, it depends. Luxembourg initiated the 1 EUR corp, which lets you incorporate as a SARL (a form of LLC) for a pretty low rate. However, the law then requires that you have an external auditor of your company's books, which runs 1.5-3K for a one-man operation doing uncomplicated things. Sole proprietor is easier, and you can do your books yourself, but then the liability is unlimited. I think you'll find many of the southern EU states are similar, the incorporation may be cheap but the accounting is less so.
jeltz 6y ago
In Sweden all three are true. It costs less than 200 EUR and you can do it online.

dboreham 6y ago

I suspect you're receiving filtered information (some people have an agenda to prove how bad the government is). You absolutely don't need a lawyer to incorporate. Businesses are registered with the state, not federally, so you're seeing data pertaining to 50 "countries". The lawyer is primarily to prevent you from making what could be costly mistakes but if you don't care about that... I suspect financial literacy is low everywhere.

jeltz 6y ago
What costly mistakes? I do not know of anyone in my coubtry who would consult a lawyer when registering a company. They might consult some expert in tax planning but never a lawyer.

codpiece 6y ago

In most states, you can fill out a form provided by the commerce division and you'll be up and running for a small fee. In my state, it's about $35 and one sided sheet of paper application (or file online).

chadash 6y ago

My personal experience is that it costs about $180 to setup in my state (you can do it yourself, but i paid about $50 to an online service that helps with the process) and then about $130/year to maintain. The initial process took about 30 minutes (plus a few days waiting) and the yearly "reports" take about 15 minutes. It's pretty friction-less.

agensaequivocum 6y ago

It's that simple in Arizona with only a $50 filling fee but no annual fee or report required. It's recommend one uses a lawyer to draw up an operating agreement but not required.