7 ms·

I could get Turbo C or Turbo Pascal, there was no Turbo Ada. It has never had a compiler / IDE that made it easy to write Windows or Mac applications.

goatinaboat 6y ago
It has never had a compiler / IDE that made it easy to write Windows or Mac applications Well, it did, it just cost $50k/seat.
- EdPF 6y ago
  A little exaggerated. From the 90's there were a couple (Janus, Meridian) at about $600 a seat.
Rochus 6y ago
>> It has never had a compiler / IDE that made it easy to write Windows or Mac applications. Are you talking about the Eighties? GNAT is available for free since the nineties and the GPS IDE is available for free on all relevant platforms since nearly twenty years; even before there were IDE like alternatives for free.
- 7thaccount 6y ago
  The free part is confusing as it is GPL'd and I don't understand what the runtime exceptions mean. It's confusing to me where the boundaries are and when I would have to switch to the commercial version (and get a quote) to make paid and closed source software instead of using the community language. Ada is great, but I'll never use it past hobby status under these conditions.
  - Rochus 6y ago
    The FSF GNAT version, in contrast to the AdaCore GNAT version, comes with the RLE (see https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gcc-exception-3.1.de.html https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gcc-exception-3.1.de.html). This means that the code generated from closed-source Ada applications may be linked with the runtime library included with FSF GNAT without GPL violation. With the runtime library included with the AdaCore GNAT this is not true. So in practice you have to use FSF GNAT for closed-source applications unless you're willing to pay for the AdaCore GNAT. This is mainly an issue if you need to compile for a processor architecture for which there is no FSF runtime library.
    - 7thaccount 6y ago
      Thank you! Is the FSF GNAT version ancient or pretty close to the Adacore version in terms of updates?
      - Rochus 6y ago
        I'm not up to date. Last time I checked (about five years ago) the FSF GNAT was about a year behind AdaCore GPL GNAT. Maybe someone else has more recent information.
        andi999 6y ago
        What abour Spark?
        Rochus 6y ago
        SPARK is a model checker for a subset of Ada. In contrast to the GNAT runtime library there is no need to deploy anything related to SPARK when you use it. As long as you don't deploy GPL software there is no issue with closed-source applications. Just use the GPL version of GNAT and SPARK to build and check your application.
        foerbert 6y ago
        At least as of a year or two ago, AdaCore seemed to be putting in more effort to shore up the differences between FSF and GPL GNAT.
        Rochus 6y ago
        Do you have evidence/references of this? After all, FSF GNAT was already compatible with Ada 2012 at that time. And a company that makes large investments in software using Ada undoubtedly needs support and will not shy away from the comparatively low additional costs for licenses and maintenance contracts in its own interest. But it is important that the technology is absolutely free for small companies and people who are simply interested in the technology.
- protomyth 6y ago
  Besides the licensing confusion 7thaccount mentions, the GPS IDE is only free for "open source GPL software"[1]. Otherwise its everybody's favorite "Request Pricing - Help us understand your development needs and get your pricing information or an evaluation". This sucked for Smalltalk, and it sucks for Ada. I stand by my statement there was no equivalent to the Turbo family for Ada. The Ada space isn't very different than the Smalltalk although I think the Ada story might be worse. Damn shame for such a nice programming language. 1) https://www.adacore.com/community https://www.adacore.com/community >> https://www.adacore.com/gnatpro/comparison https://www.adacore.com/gnatpro/comparison
  - Rochus 6y ago
    > the GPS IDE is only free for "open source GPL software"[1] That's very academic. The GPS is available under GPL (see https://github.com/AdaCore/gps https://github.com/AdaCore/gps). As long as you don't deploy GPS or link your app with it you can use it for closed-source apps as you like; it's definitely no GPL violation. > This sucked for Smalltalk Not sure why you compare it to Smalltalk; but for the latter you can use Squeak for free (under MIT or Apache license) since the nineties and today even a couple of other powerful Smalltalk implementations such as Pharo.
    - protomyth 6y ago
      That's very academic. No, if small commercial developers cannot use the language without paying massive fees, you might as well forget any popularity. Heck, you couldn't even use Ada for non-GPL open source programs. Not sure why you compare it to Smalltalk Because Smalltalk vendors have a long history of doing the same pricing that made it impractical to impossible for the little guy to use the language. There have been several threads on HN about this.
      - Rochus 6y ago
        > No, if small commercial developers cannot use the language without paying massive fees, you might as well forget any popularity Have you read my answer? There is no reason why you couldn't use FSF GNAT or GPS in closed-source projects. > Heck, you couldn't even use Ada for non-GPL open source programs. Why not? The GPL GNAT with RLE allows you to use any licence with your application, whether closed or open-source. > Because Smalltalk vendors have a long history of doing the same pricing that made it impractical to impossible for the little guy to use the language. There were always free ST versions as far as I can remember. The "little guy" could e.g. use "Little Smalltalk" by Budd which appeared before 1987.

goatinaboat 6y ago

It has never had a compiler / IDE that made it easy to write Windows or Mac applications Well, it did, it just cost $50k/seat.

EdPF 6y ago
A little exaggerated. From the 90's there were a couple (Janus, Meridian) at about $600 a seat.

Rochus 6y ago

>> It has never had a compiler / IDE that made it easy to write Windows or Mac applications. Are you talking about the Eighties? GNAT is available for free since the nineties and the GPS IDE is available for free on all relevant platforms since nearly twenty years; even before there were IDE like alternatives for free.

7thaccount 6y ago
The free part is confusing as it is GPL'd and I don't understand what the runtime exceptions mean. It's confusing to me where the boundaries are and when I would have to switch to the commercial version (and get a quote) to make paid and closed source software instead of using the community language. Ada is great, but I'll never use it past hobby status under these conditions.
- Rochus 6y ago
  The FSF GNAT version, in contrast to the AdaCore GNAT version, comes with the RLE (see https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gcc-exception-3.1.de.html https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gcc-exception-3.1.de.html). This means that the code generated from closed-source Ada applications may be linked with the runtime library included with FSF GNAT without GPL violation. With the runtime library included with the AdaCore GNAT this is not true. So in practice you have to use FSF GNAT for closed-source applications unless you're willing to pay for the AdaCore GNAT. This is mainly an issue if you need to compile for a processor architecture for which there is no FSF runtime library.
  - 7thaccount 6y ago
    Thank you! Is the FSF GNAT version ancient or pretty close to the Adacore version in terms of updates?
    - Rochus 6y ago
      I'm not up to date. Last time I checked (about five years ago) the FSF GNAT was about a year behind AdaCore GPL GNAT. Maybe someone else has more recent information.
      - andi999 6y ago
        What abour Spark?
        Rochus 6y ago
        SPARK is a model checker for a subset of Ada. In contrast to the GNAT runtime library there is no need to deploy anything related to SPARK when you use it. As long as you don't deploy GPL software there is no issue with closed-source applications. Just use the GPL version of GNAT and SPARK to build and check your application.
      - foerbert 6y ago
        At least as of a year or two ago, AdaCore seemed to be putting in more effort to shore up the differences between FSF and GPL GNAT.
        Rochus 6y ago
        Do you have evidence/references of this? After all, FSF GNAT was already compatible with Ada 2012 at that time. And a company that makes large investments in software using Ada undoubtedly needs support and will not shy away from the comparatively low additional costs for licenses and maintenance contracts in its own interest. But it is important that the technology is absolutely free for small companies and people who are simply interested in the technology.
protomyth 6y ago
Besides the licensing confusion 7thaccount mentions, the GPS IDE is only free for "open source GPL software"[1]. Otherwise its everybody's favorite "Request Pricing - Help us understand your development needs and get your pricing information or an evaluation". This sucked for Smalltalk, and it sucks for Ada. I stand by my statement there was no equivalent to the Turbo family for Ada. The Ada space isn't very different than the Smalltalk although I think the Ada story might be worse. Damn shame for such a nice programming language. 1) https://www.adacore.com/community https://www.adacore.com/community >> https://www.adacore.com/gnatpro/comparison https://www.adacore.com/gnatpro/comparison
- Rochus 6y ago
  > the GPS IDE is only free for "open source GPL software"[1] That's very academic. The GPS is available under GPL (see https://github.com/AdaCore/gps https://github.com/AdaCore/gps). As long as you don't deploy GPS or link your app with it you can use it for closed-source apps as you like; it's definitely no GPL violation. > This sucked for Smalltalk Not sure why you compare it to Smalltalk; but for the latter you can use Squeak for free (under MIT or Apache license) since the nineties and today even a couple of other powerful Smalltalk implementations such as Pharo.
  - protomyth 6y ago
    That's very academic. No, if small commercial developers cannot use the language without paying massive fees, you might as well forget any popularity. Heck, you couldn't even use Ada for non-GPL open source programs. Not sure why you compare it to Smalltalk Because Smalltalk vendors have a long history of doing the same pricing that made it impractical to impossible for the little guy to use the language. There have been several threads on HN about this.
    - Rochus 6y ago
      > No, if small commercial developers cannot use the language without paying massive fees, you might as well forget any popularity Have you read my answer? There is no reason why you couldn't use FSF GNAT or GPS in closed-source projects. > Heck, you couldn't even use Ada for non-GPL open source programs. Why not? The GPL GNAT with RLE allows you to use any licence with your application, whether closed or open-source. > Because Smalltalk vendors have a long history of doing the same pricing that made it impractical to impossible for the little guy to use the language. There were always free ST versions as far as I can remember. The "little guy" could e.g. use "Little Smalltalk" by Budd which appeared before 1987.