4 ms·

This is a good thing to do, but for once, I'm not sure the Internet Archive is the right entity to do it. I don't think the IA can ensure permanent access to an

This is a good thing to do, but for once, I'm not sure the Internet Archive is the right entity to do it. I don't think the IA can ensure permanent access to anything at all right now since it's facing an existential threat as a result of its "lend copies of books that belong to other institutions" stunt.

gojomo 6y ago
Choosing any one "the right entity" is the wrong strategy for truly robust preservation. Redundancy in a variety of organizations & technical regimes best ensures durability against all risks. So the IA's efforts here should be encouraged, and those of every other project able to take on similar duties. And if vaguely implying that the IA is inadequate, please at least hint at potential alternatives who are or could be doing the necessary work instead. Note that anyone concerned about IA's longevity can and should leverage IA's groundwork – such as by mirroring its collections elsewhere, as is fairly straightforward either via explicit coordination or even dark/uncoordinated scraping.
- mellosouls 6y ago
  Your point about multiple points of failure is well made, but one of the problems with the constant focus on the admirable efforts of the Internet Archive here and elsewhere is precisely that the many other archiving and digital preservation efforts go by relatively unheralded and underfunded. Having said that, the spotlight on the IA does give opportunity to raise the profile of web archiving and digital preservation generally; we just need to be careful not to invest everything in any one initiative - as the parent comment fairly points out.
  - Shared404 6y ago
    > one of the problems with the constant focus on the admirable efforts of the Internet Archive here and elsewhere is precisely that the many other archiving and digital preservation efforts go by relatively unheralded and underfunded. Any chance you could point me to some other initiatives? I'm always interested in finding more repositories of information.
    - mellosouls 6y ago
      Example (these have followed the trailblazing Internet Archive): https://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Web_archiving_initiatives https://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Web_archiving_initiat... International Internet Preservation Consortium is an active body linking many of them. https://netpreserve.org/ https://netpreserve.org/ There are various resources giving information on tools etc, eg. https://github.com/iipc/awesome-web-archiving https://github.com/iipc/awesome-web-archiving https://github.com/pirate/ArchiveBox/wiki/Web-Archiving-Community https://github.com/pirate/ArchiveBox/wiki/Web-Archiving-Comm...
      - Shared404 6y ago
        That is an amazing list. Favorited.
- est31 6y ago
  Yeah archives can be affected by multiple threats. Fire, natural catastrophies, etc. are one. Those can be fixed within the organization, by creating redundant copies in different places. There are organizational threats as well, affecting the structure running the archive. It's the guardians of the archive not being able or willing to preserve parts or all of it. The lawsuit is such an organizational threat.
- cxr 6y ago
  > please at least hint at potential alternatives who are or could be doing the necessary work instead. For this particular use case, Perma.cc has significant institutional backing. https://perma.cc/ https://perma.cc/ https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10948033 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10948033
sp332 6y ago
> existential threat https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/2020/6/23/21293875/internet-archive-website-lawsuit-open-library-wayback-machine-controversy-copyright https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/2020/6/23/21293875/internet... "it only asks for a halt to the practice of copying books for loan in the Open Library itself, not the entire IA" "the lawsuit takes pains to clarify that the publishers aren’t trying to shut down the rest of the Internet Archive" "the lawsuit seeks financial damages only for the sharing of 127 books under copyright" "the most the Internet Archive would have to pay would be $19 million — essentially equivalent to one year of operating revenue, according to IA tax documents. That’s a huge setback, but for the IA, a tech nonprofit that relies heavily on grants and public donations, it’s not the major death blow it might seem to be."
- walterbell 6y ago
  After near-term existence is confirmed, long-term existence can be ensured by legally firewalling the global public web archive from more adventurous business units.
cf 6y ago
I don't think there should be any single entity responsible for archiving. If you want something preserved there needs to be multiple copies across different organisations.

gojomo 6y ago

Choosing any one "the right entity" is the wrong strategy for truly robust preservation. Redundancy in a variety of organizations & technical regimes best ensures durability against all risks. So the IA's efforts here should be encouraged, and those of every other project able to take on similar duties. And if vaguely implying that the IA is inadequate, please at least hint at potential alternatives who are or could be doing the necessary work instead. Note that anyone concerned about IA's longevity can and should leverage IA's groundwork – such as by mirroring its collections elsewhere, as is fairly straightforward either via explicit coordination or even dark/uncoordinated scraping.

mellosouls 6y ago
Your point about multiple points of failure is well made, but one of the problems with the constant focus on the admirable efforts of the Internet Archive here and elsewhere is precisely that the many other archiving and digital preservation efforts go by relatively unheralded and underfunded. Having said that, the spotlight on the IA does give opportunity to raise the profile of web archiving and digital preservation generally; we just need to be careful not to invest everything in any one initiative - as the parent comment fairly points out.
- Shared404 6y ago
  > one of the problems with the constant focus on the admirable efforts of the Internet Archive here and elsewhere is precisely that the many other archiving and digital preservation efforts go by relatively unheralded and underfunded. Any chance you could point me to some other initiatives? I'm always interested in finding more repositories of information.
  - mellosouls 6y ago
    Example (these have followed the trailblazing Internet Archive): https://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Web_archiving_initiatives https://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Web_archiving_initiat... International Internet Preservation Consortium is an active body linking many of them. https://netpreserve.org/ https://netpreserve.org/ There are various resources giving information on tools etc, eg. https://github.com/iipc/awesome-web-archiving https://github.com/iipc/awesome-web-archiving https://github.com/pirate/ArchiveBox/wiki/Web-Archiving-Community https://github.com/pirate/ArchiveBox/wiki/Web-Archiving-Comm...
    - Shared404 6y ago
      That is an amazing list. Favorited.
est31 6y ago
Yeah archives can be affected by multiple threats. Fire, natural catastrophies, etc. are one. Those can be fixed within the organization, by creating redundant copies in different places. There are organizational threats as well, affecting the structure running the archive. It's the guardians of the archive not being able or willing to preserve parts or all of it. The lawsuit is such an organizational threat.
cxr 6y ago
> please at least hint at potential alternatives who are or could be doing the necessary work instead. For this particular use case, Perma.cc has significant institutional backing. https://perma.cc/ https://perma.cc/ https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10948033 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10948033

sp332 6y ago

> existential threat https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/2020/6/23/21293875/internet-archive-website-lawsuit-open-library-wayback-machine-controversy-copyright https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/2020/6/23/21293875/internet... "it only asks for a halt to the practice of copying books for loan in the Open Library itself, not the entire IA" "the lawsuit takes pains to clarify that the publishers aren’t trying to shut down the rest of the Internet Archive" "the lawsuit seeks financial damages only for the sharing of 127 books under copyright" "the most the Internet Archive would have to pay would be $19 million — essentially equivalent to one year of operating revenue, according to IA tax documents. That’s a huge setback, but for the IA, a tech nonprofit that relies heavily on grants and public donations, it’s not the major death blow it might seem to be."

walterbell 6y ago
After near-term existence is confirmed, long-term existence can be ensured by legally firewalling the global public web archive from more adventurous business units.

cf 6y ago

I don't think there should be any single entity responsible for archiving. If you want something preserved there needs to be multiple copies across different organisations.