3 ms·

It's not hard because the changes are small and gradual, and you have to update your JDK every quarter anyway -- whether you use the current version or an old o

by pron 6y ago

It's not hard because the changes are small and gradual, and you have to update your JDK every quarter anyway -- whether you use the current version or an old one -- just to get the security patches. It's just a matter of how that work is spread. It's likely that updating once every 3 years is more work overall. Plus, you've done that already back when there were still major releases, and the semi-annual feature releases didn't get a new integer number (8u20, 8u40 etc. were big feature releases). Plus, keep in mind that LTS is a paid service. What appears to be "free LTS" isn't really LTS, but builds of the OpenJDK Updates projects. Those builds serve as the basis for various paid LTS offerings, but in themselves they don't actually maintain the full JDK. OpenJDK Updates just backports stuff from the mainline version. If you're using a component that's been removed from the mainline -- and you probably do or else you'd upgrade -- then that component is not maintained in OpenJDK Updates (so-called "free LTS") because there's nothing to backport from. The only version that's 100% maintained for free is the current JDK (15 as of today).

Yeroc 6y ago
That's not true unless you mean "free LTS" JDK from Oracle. There are several other projects providing free LTS, TCK-certified builds including: RedHat OpenJDK & Amazon Corretto to name two off the top of my head.
- pron 6y ago
  No one offers free LTS (or, rather, what you call "free LTS" is very different from a real LTS service, which is always paid, and you might not be getting what you think you are). The "LTS release" you get for free are builds of OpenJDK Updates. Try to open an issue on, say, Nashorn against a "free" LTS 11 and see if it gets addressed. It won't be -- unless you actually pay for a real LTS -- because Nashorn has been removed from the mainline and there's nothing to backport. Same for CMS or any other package or component that's been removed. If you're using one of those "free LTS" distributions you should know that you're using a JDK that's not fully maintained. The only JDK version that's fully maintained completely free is the current version. To be fully safe and run maintained software you can either use the current version for free or use an old version and pay someone for LTS. Maintaining a JDK is a lot of work. There are a couple of hundred full-time developers working on OpenJDK tip and maintaining the current release; there are ~10 full-time engineers (probably less) from all companies combined maintaining both OpenJDK 8u and 11u. For real support for an old version you must pay. (I work on OpenJDK at Oracle)
  - koreth1 6y ago
    While it's definitely important to be aware of what exactly you're getting for your non-money from different JVM vendors, I think that point of view underestimates how many people use LTS versions purely to tick a "we are using supported software versions" box in their corporate bureaucracy's paperwork, and never intend to actually ask for any support at all.
    - pron 6y ago
      The question is what level of maintenance is required to call something "supported." But yes, there is some maintenance done for free on old versions of the JDK in OpenJDK Updates in the form of backports. The thing is that the money saved in hardware/hosting by running the current version would more than pay for any update costs. By using the current version, companies will be using better maintained software and paying less money for it. Those "free LTS" builds, which aren't really LTS, is a mind game that keeps companies on old versions that cost more money to run in the hopes that people will ultimately pay for real maintenance, perhaps once they fall behind too far.
  - magicpointer 6y ago
    This situation is still a bit hard to understand for me as a simple Java dev. Until now I thought that there were 3 kinds of "LTS": 1) OpenJDK Updates binary builds: they take the source code of the project, build it, and provide binaries. Examples I know are AdoptOpenJDK and the free Azul OpenJDK distribution. 2) Open source LTS: they take the OpenJDK Updates project, then add bugfixes they did for their PAYING customers. They publish the source code of the result. Here I see RedHat OpenJDK (such as the OpenJDK 8/11 builds distributed with RHEL 7/8). Those are then made available for free in binary form as well, such as part of CentOS. If you want a big fixed in those versions you have to pay, but you can benefit from bug fixes made for others. "LTS" here means as long as the RHEL version lives. 3) Paid LTS with custom support. Those do the same as 2, but don't release the source or binaries to the public, only to paid customers. Maybe there are even custom builds for specific customers. That would be Oracle mainly, and Azul and IBM as well. What's unclear to me is if fixes from 2 flow into 1. Also, I don't know which kind Coretto is (Probably 1). Is that a correct assessment of the situation?
elric 6y ago
> It's not hard because the changes are small and gradual Size isn't the only issue. Version number of fetishism is very much a thing in large companies. Megacorps and banks are very slow to update. I can't tell my customers to switch to Java 15 tomorrow (or even next year). Especially after the complexity of upgrades to 9 and 11, both of which broke things in many subtle ways. This may not be an issue for many applications, but it was certainly an issue for us and our customers.
- pron 6y ago
  9 was the last major release ever, and it was a big one at that (bigger than 8). And since most people skipped both 9 and 10, there was even more work. If you use the current version, all that will never ever be necessary again. If you don't, this will happen over and over, and worse: because OpenJDK's development ignores vendor's LTS services, things can disappear between one of the versions with LTS and another without warning. Because your customers don't educate themselves they're condemning themselves to an eternity of pain (paid support, higher upgrade effort, more hardware) when salvation is already here (free support [1], lower overall upgrade effort than ever in Java's history, plus always enjoying the hardware savings). I admit that doing away with major releases, giving the feature releases new version names, and the last ever major release was too much all at the same time and is confusing. But the payoff in learning what actually happened is big, as is the loss in not. Your customers might be losing both time-to-market and serious money for a lack of a day's worth of education. They can start here: https://blogs.oracle.com/java-platform-group/update-and-faq-on-the-java-se-release-cadence https://blogs.oracle.com/java-platform-group/update-and-faq-... [1]: The only version for which you get free support from anyone is the current version. No one offers free LTS for old versions. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24487298 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24487298

by pron 6y ago

Yeroc 6y ago

That's not true unless you mean "free LTS" JDK from Oracle. There are several other projects providing free LTS, TCK-certified builds including: RedHat OpenJDK & Amazon Corretto to name two off the top of my head.

pron 6y ago
No one offers free LTS (or, rather, what you call "free LTS" is very different from a real LTS service, which is always paid, and you might not be getting what you think you are). The "LTS release" you get for free are builds of OpenJDK Updates. Try to open an issue on, say, Nashorn against a "free" LTS 11 and see if it gets addressed. It won't be -- unless you actually pay for a real LTS -- because Nashorn has been removed from the mainline and there's nothing to backport. Same for CMS or any other package or component that's been removed. If you're using one of those "free LTS" distributions you should know that you're using a JDK that's not fully maintained. The only JDK version that's fully maintained completely free is the current version. To be fully safe and run maintained software you can either use the current version for free or use an old version and pay someone for LTS. Maintaining a JDK is a lot of work. There are a couple of hundred full-time developers working on OpenJDK tip and maintaining the current release; there are ~10 full-time engineers (probably less) from all companies combined maintaining both OpenJDK 8u and 11u. For real support for an old version you must pay. (I work on OpenJDK at Oracle)
- koreth1 6y ago
  While it's definitely important to be aware of what exactly you're getting for your non-money from different JVM vendors, I think that point of view underestimates how many people use LTS versions purely to tick a "we are using supported software versions" box in their corporate bureaucracy's paperwork, and never intend to actually ask for any support at all.
  - pron 6y ago
    The question is what level of maintenance is required to call something "supported." But yes, there is some maintenance done for free on old versions of the JDK in OpenJDK Updates in the form of backports. The thing is that the money saved in hardware/hosting by running the current version would more than pay for any update costs. By using the current version, companies will be using better maintained software and paying less money for it. Those "free LTS" builds, which aren't really LTS, is a mind game that keeps companies on old versions that cost more money to run in the hopes that people will ultimately pay for real maintenance, perhaps once they fall behind too far.
- magicpointer 6y ago
  This situation is still a bit hard to understand for me as a simple Java dev. Until now I thought that there were 3 kinds of "LTS": 1) OpenJDK Updates binary builds: they take the source code of the project, build it, and provide binaries. Examples I know are AdoptOpenJDK and the free Azul OpenJDK distribution. 2) Open source LTS: they take the OpenJDK Updates project, then add bugfixes they did for their PAYING customers. They publish the source code of the result. Here I see RedHat OpenJDK (such as the OpenJDK 8/11 builds distributed with RHEL 7/8). Those are then made available for free in binary form as well, such as part of CentOS. If you want a big fixed in those versions you have to pay, but you can benefit from bug fixes made for others. "LTS" here means as long as the RHEL version lives. 3) Paid LTS with custom support. Those do the same as 2, but don't release the source or binaries to the public, only to paid customers. Maybe there are even custom builds for specific customers. That would be Oracle mainly, and Azul and IBM as well. What's unclear to me is if fixes from 2 flow into 1. Also, I don't know which kind Coretto is (Probably 1). Is that a correct assessment of the situation?

elric 6y ago

> It's not hard because the changes are small and gradual Size isn't the only issue. Version number of fetishism is very much a thing in large companies. Megacorps and banks are very slow to update. I can't tell my customers to switch to Java 15 tomorrow (or even next year). Especially after the complexity of upgrades to 9 and 11, both of which broke things in many subtle ways. This may not be an issue for many applications, but it was certainly an issue for us and our customers.

pron 6y ago
9 was the last major release ever, and it was a big one at that (bigger than 8). And since most people skipped both 9 and 10, there was even more work. If you use the current version, all that will never ever be necessary again. If you don't, this will happen over and over, and worse: because OpenJDK's development ignores vendor's LTS services, things can disappear between one of the versions with LTS and another without warning. Because your customers don't educate themselves they're condemning themselves to an eternity of pain (paid support, higher upgrade effort, more hardware) when salvation is already here (free support [1], lower overall upgrade effort than ever in Java's history, plus always enjoying the hardware savings). I admit that doing away with major releases, giving the feature releases new version names, and the last ever major release was too much all at the same time and is confusing. But the payoff in learning what actually happened is big, as is the loss in not. Your customers might be losing both time-to-market and serious money for a lack of a day's worth of education. They can start here: https://blogs.oracle.com/java-platform-group/update-and-faq-on-the-java-se-release-cadence https://blogs.oracle.com/java-platform-group/update-and-faq-... [1]: The only version for which you get free support from anyone is the current version. No one offers free LTS for old versions. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24487298 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24487298