3 ms·

Cliff Mass is 100% right on comparing BLM protesters to brownshirts, and he was also specific in noting that he isn't describing all protesters. The relevant qu

Cliff Mass is 100% right on comparing BLM protesters to brownshirts, and he was also specific in noting that he isn't describing all protesters. The relevant quote from his blog post is "Seattle's brownshirts have hidden within protest groups". Those who say this is an inappropriate comparison are gaslighting, as these criminals have a consistent track record of engaging in violence, intimidation, threats, and more. Let's take a look at what this subset of BLM protesters have done in the Seattle area. They: 1. Harassed the mayor at her house, and issuing death threats like "guillotine Jenny" and writing misogynist messages like "Resign bitch" on her house and the road in front, and used similar tactics at the houses of council members: https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/native-leaders-organizations-decry-intimidation-outside-home-of-seattle-city-councils-juarez/ https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/native-le... 2. Repeatedly blocking bridges and highways, snarling traffic for thousands of drivers, pedestrians, and bicyclists even after their irresponsible highway blockades led to a death: https://www.kuow.org/stories/updates-protests-for-racial-justice-in-the-seattle-a/ https://www.kuow.org/stories/updates-protests-for-racial-jus... 3. Showed up at our black female police chief's neighborhood, started documenting who lives where, noted license plates, and interrogated neighborhood kids for information: https://lynnwoodtimes.com/2020/08/02/hundreds-of-blm-supporters-storm-snohomish-county-neighborhood-to-protest-at-seattle-police-chief-carmen-bests-home/ https://lynnwoodtimes.com/2020/08/02/hundreds-of-blm-support... 4. Even showed up at the houses of council members who agreed to their demands, to intimidate them and make sure they wouldn't change their stance: https://westseattleblog.com/2020/08/protest-evening-march-in-west-seattle-for-5th-time-in-11-nights/ https://westseattleblog.com/2020/08/protest-evening-march-in... 5. Used a homeless camp as a staging area for riots, storing weapons there: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/seattle-police-recover-weapons-homemade-spike-strips-and-mortar-from-cal-anderson-park/ar-BB18DNYe https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/seattle-police-recover-wea... 6. Showed up at white people's homes, demanding that residents leave the neighborhood: https://www.bizpacreview.com/2020/08/14/blm-marches-through-seattle-residential-area-demand-white-people-surrender-their-homes-959988 https://www.bizpacreview.com/2020/08/14/blm-marches-through-... 7. Made lists of businesses to destroy: https://thepostmillennial.com/antifa-rioters-made-lists-of-seattle-businesses-to-destroy https://thepostmillennial.com/antifa-rioters-made-lists-of-s... How can you not see the valid comparison to brownshirts here? Damaging property, holding drivers hostage on the highway, obstructing others from accessing public infrastructure, committing arson, issuing death threats, and so forth all match the description perfectly. Remember, terrorism is defined as "the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes." (https://www.dictionary.com/browse/terrorism https://www.dictionary.com/browse/terrorism). The actions of local BLM activists and Antifa rioters completely fits this description. And given the evidence is so clear, this attempt to cancel Cliff Mass, a distinguished Professor of Atmospheric Science at a major research university, is simply progressive cancel culture run amok.

AlexandrB 6y ago
So if these incidences of harassment are evidence that BLM are "acting like brownshirts", prey tell to what should we compare the right wing groups that have spawned several fatal shooters?
- throwawaysea 6y ago
  That seems like whataboutism to me. What bearing does that have on the correctness of Cliff Mass's comparison of the subset of BLM protesters that engage in criminal activities and brownshirts?
  - Pyramus 6y ago
    It goes to show that Cliff Mass has completely lost his framework of reference in his comparison (and so have you). As a German let me assure you that comparing riots among BLM protesters to the Kristallnacht is utterly unappropriate. Don't get me wrong - the rioters should be held accountable for their crimes. You compare a local, loosely organised group of somewhat indiscriminate rioters to a nation-wide, highly hierarchical, para-military organisation that targets one specific ethnicity and went on to commit mass murder of said ethnicity on an unprecedented, industrial scale.
    - throwawaysea 6y ago
      My feeling is that you are getting overly specific about requiring every detail to be an exact match for a similarity to hold. I don't think that is reasonable. Both the criminal subsets of BLM and the brownshirts created an atmosphere of fear. In Seattle, people are afraid to voice their political opinions freely, whether online or in social circles or at work or in political action or protests, because of the threat of these groups and their aggressive tactics. That is what makes this comparison valid, ultimately, since these actions constitute terrorism. Some other responses to specific things you mentioned: > loosely organised group BLM is a nationwide (and global) organization with chapters in numerous cities across America. Protesters in different cities share tactics, chants, demands, etc with each other. Many cities even share the same exact participants. For example, some people from Seattle were arrested in Kenosha recently, as they were using their food truck "Riot Kitchen" as a cover for planned criminal activity (https://thepostmillennial.com/portlands-riot-kitchen-arrested-in-kenosha-wisc-while-filling-large-gas-canisters https://thepostmillennial.com/portlands-riot-kitchen-arreste...). Just because these groups have some degree of decentralization doesn't mean they are "local" or just "loosely organized", and it does not reduce the chilling effect they are having on political discourse. > somewhat indiscriminate rioters The various incidents I quoted in my earlier comment were highly-targeted, which is the opposite of indiscriminate. > para-military organisation that targets one specific ethnicity and went on to commit mass murder of said ethnicity on an unprecedented, industrial scale There is no mass murder from BLM. However, this was not the primary purpose of the brownshirts either. The regime that the brownshirts enabled was responsible for significant mass murder, but the brownshirts themselves are described in Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturmabteilung https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturmabteilung) as follows: "Its primary purposes were providing protection for Nazi rallies and assemblies; disrupting the meetings of opposing parties; fighting against the paramilitary units of the opposing parties [...]; and intimidating Romani, trade unionists, and especially Jews such as during the 1933 Nazi boycott of Jewish businesses" The parallels I am noting are things like providing protection for riots/criminal activity, disrupting opposing parties, and intimidation (of politicians, of private citizens, of businesses). My evidence is the long list of incidents I mentioned in my earlier comment. One of those incidents was even explicitly targeting an ethnicity. Another incident specifically carried misogynist tones. All of these incidents targeted people based on political views and created a sense of fear, so that those who harbor a different opinion are afraid to speak out. That is happening on an unprecedented, industrial scale, across virtually every city in the country. > let me assure you that comparing riots among BLM protesters to the Kristallnacht is utterly unappropriate Let's take a look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristallnacht https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristallnacht. It characterizes the event as involving "Pogrom, looting, arson, mass arrests". The definition of pogrom is noted in its own Wikipedia article as "A pogrom is a violent riot aimed at the massacre or expulsion of an ethnic or religious group, particularly one aimed at Jews". I mentioned there have been incidents of mobs showing up at the homes of white citizens and demanding they leave - so that checks the "expulsion of an ethnic group" part. We obviously have also had violent riots, looting, and arson as well - there are tons of videos showing that. To my knowledge, city leadership did nothing to stop many of these incidents, by the way. Seattle did not have the scale of Kristallnacht, nor the mass arrests/incarceration, nor the murder. I don't think Cliff Mass was claiming that, and I don't think readers interpreted his comparison that way either. But since Seattle has had many of the other elements, I felt the comparison was valid-enough to draw.

AlexandrB 6y ago

So if these incidences of harassment are evidence that BLM are "acting like brownshirts", prey tell to what should we compare the right wing groups that have spawned several fatal shooters?

throwawaysea 6y ago
That seems like whataboutism to me. What bearing does that have on the correctness of Cliff Mass's comparison of the subset of BLM protesters that engage in criminal activities and brownshirts?
- Pyramus 6y ago
  It goes to show that Cliff Mass has completely lost his framework of reference in his comparison (and so have you). As a German let me assure you that comparing riots among BLM protesters to the Kristallnacht is utterly unappropriate. Don't get me wrong - the rioters should be held accountable for their crimes. You compare a local, loosely organised group of somewhat indiscriminate rioters to a nation-wide, highly hierarchical, para-military organisation that targets one specific ethnicity and went on to commit mass murder of said ethnicity on an unprecedented, industrial scale.
  - throwawaysea 6y ago
    My feeling is that you are getting overly specific about requiring every detail to be an exact match for a similarity to hold. I don't think that is reasonable. Both the criminal subsets of BLM and the brownshirts created an atmosphere of fear. In Seattle, people are afraid to voice their political opinions freely, whether online or in social circles or at work or in political action or protests, because of the threat of these groups and their aggressive tactics. That is what makes this comparison valid, ultimately, since these actions constitute terrorism. Some other responses to specific things you mentioned: > loosely organised group BLM is a nationwide (and global) organization with chapters in numerous cities across America. Protesters in different cities share tactics, chants, demands, etc with each other. Many cities even share the same exact participants. For example, some people from Seattle were arrested in Kenosha recently, as they were using their food truck "Riot Kitchen" as a cover for planned criminal activity (https://thepostmillennial.com/portlands-riot-kitchen-arrested-in-kenosha-wisc-while-filling-large-gas-canisters https://thepostmillennial.com/portlands-riot-kitchen-arreste...). Just because these groups have some degree of decentralization doesn't mean they are "local" or just "loosely organized", and it does not reduce the chilling effect they are having on political discourse. > somewhat indiscriminate rioters The various incidents I quoted in my earlier comment were highly-targeted, which is the opposite of indiscriminate. > para-military organisation that targets one specific ethnicity and went on to commit mass murder of said ethnicity on an unprecedented, industrial scale There is no mass murder from BLM. However, this was not the primary purpose of the brownshirts either. The regime that the brownshirts enabled was responsible for significant mass murder, but the brownshirts themselves are described in Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturmabteilung https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturmabteilung) as follows: "Its primary purposes were providing protection for Nazi rallies and assemblies; disrupting the meetings of opposing parties; fighting against the paramilitary units of the opposing parties [...]; and intimidating Romani, trade unionists, and especially Jews such as during the 1933 Nazi boycott of Jewish businesses" The parallels I am noting are things like providing protection for riots/criminal activity, disrupting opposing parties, and intimidation (of politicians, of private citizens, of businesses). My evidence is the long list of incidents I mentioned in my earlier comment. One of those incidents was even explicitly targeting an ethnicity. Another incident specifically carried misogynist tones. All of these incidents targeted people based on political views and created a sense of fear, so that those who harbor a different opinion are afraid to speak out. That is happening on an unprecedented, industrial scale, across virtually every city in the country. > let me assure you that comparing riots among BLM protesters to the Kristallnacht is utterly unappropriate Let's take a look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristallnacht https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristallnacht. It characterizes the event as involving "Pogrom, looting, arson, mass arrests". The definition of pogrom is noted in its own Wikipedia article as "A pogrom is a violent riot aimed at the massacre or expulsion of an ethnic or religious group, particularly one aimed at Jews". I mentioned there have been incidents of mobs showing up at the homes of white citizens and demanding they leave - so that checks the "expulsion of an ethnic group" part. We obviously have also had violent riots, looting, and arson as well - there are tons of videos showing that. To my knowledge, city leadership did nothing to stop many of these incidents, by the way. Seattle did not have the scale of Kristallnacht, nor the mass arrests/incarceration, nor the murder. I don't think Cliff Mass was claiming that, and I don't think readers interpreted his comparison that way either. But since Seattle has had many of the other elements, I felt the comparison was valid-enough to draw.