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Do you like the idea of Apple owning the operating system you use, the computer it runs on, all the apps running on that operating system, the entire network st

Do you like the idea of Apple owning the operating system you use, the computer it runs on, all the apps running on that operating system, the entire network stack, all of the network services, the gym you visit, the money you use, the school you attend, the church where you worship, the food that you buy, the place where you work, the hospital where you die? Can't you see where they're going with this?

aYsY4dDQ2NrcNzA 6y ago
Please spell it out. I’d like to know which flavor of dystopia you’re picturing.
zepto 6y ago
It would have been nice if Google hadn’t betrayed their promise of Android being open. Then we’d have had a good alternative.
- chromedev 6y ago
  Google didn't betray their promise. Android is open source and Apple not Microsoft have open sourced their operating system.
  - Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
    With each new release, more and more parts of Android are reliant on proprietary Google APIs. It is known. If you remove everything Google from Android 19, you'll be surprised how little it can do.
    - chromedev 6y ago
      Little as in what? You're being very vague. Do you want to use official Google Apps without the Google APIs? At least the OS is open source, but I can have a very functional device without needing gapps. Same with COS on their cloud platform. Apple is actively preventing users from even installing apps outside their app store.
      - Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
        I think by now it is common knowledge in anyone interested in this subject. A good place to start is this ArsTechnica post from 2013 (updated in 2018) [1]. One nice user on Reddit made a list [2] of AOSP apps replaced by Google: Google Services Framework removed in 1.1, replaced by Google Play Services Search removed in 1.5, replaced by Google Music removed in 2.3, replaced by Play Music Browser removed in 4.2, replaced by Chrome. Calendar removed in 4.4, replaced by Calendar (G) PinyinIME removed in 4.4, replaced by Google Pinyin IME Gallery removed in 5.0, replaced by Photos (G) Messaging removed in 6.0, replaced by Messages (G) Camera removed in 6.0, replaced by Camera (G) LatinIME removed in 6.0, replaced by GBoard. Contacts removed in 7.0, replaced by Contacts (G) Phone removed in 7.1, replaced by Dialer (G) Clock removed in 8.1, replaced by Clock (G) Calculator removed in 9.0, replaced by Calculator (G). This extends to APIs too. For example, Android Location API [3] has a very nice warning on the documentation page: > This API is not the recommended method for accessing Android location. The Google Location Services API, part of Google Play services, is the preferred way to add location-awareness to your app. It offers a simpler API, higher accuracy, low-power geofencing, and more. If you are currently using the android.location API, you are strongly encouraged to switch to the Google Location Services API as soon as possible. To learn more about the Google Location Services API, see the Location API overview. Hope I removed some vagueness left by my previous comment. [1]: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/07/googles-iron-grip-on-android-controlling-open-source-by-any-means-necessary/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/07/googles-iron-grip-on... [2]: https://www.reddit.com/r/fossdroid/comments/c332yr/what_impedes_google_from_moving_other_aosp_apis/ https://www.reddit.com/r/fossdroid/comments/c332yr/what_impe... [3]: https://developer.android.com/reference/android/location/package-summary https://developer.android.com/reference/android/location/pac...
        chromedev 6y ago
        Android Location API uses Google services to provide better location data using Wifi hotpsots and other devices. I wouldn't expect to be able to use Google services without Google. You don't have to use it and get accurate results without it as well. As you can see they also provide examples of alternative apps that can be used that do not rely on Google, or you can install F-Droid and use apps from the open source marketplace that are open source as well. This is much more than Apple, who won't even let you install apps outside their app store. While it would be nice for Google to open source their apps as well, they aren't necessary and there are plenty of alternatives and phone manufacturers who have built their entire reputation on providing an alternative to the Google experience while using Android.
  - zepto 6y ago
    The claim that Android is open source has long been false. Yes, there is AOSP, but that’s only a small part of what constitutes an OS these days. Here’s a link to a post showing how dismal things are: https://bitcannon.net/post/finding-an-alternative-to-ios/ https://bitcannon.net/post/finding-an-alternative-to-ios/
    - chromedev 6y ago
      Does that mean that Linux needs to have Gnome to be considered an OS?
      - zepto 6y ago
        Why would it?
        chromedev 6y ago
        Because that is all the Google apps are really, are one iteration of a group of apps for functionality. You can always use F-Droid and install great open source alternatives.
        zepto 6y ago
        The fact that you can install a different operating system on some android phones doesn’t mean that the Android that phone manufacturers actually use is open source. Indeed the fact that you have to install a different operating system that isn’t even called “Android” proves that Android as people know it is not open source.
cycrutchfield 6y ago
Honestly it's hard to hear you over the sound of the tinfoil crinkling. Could you please speak up?
- Dahoon 6y ago
  At least his comment contributed something to the discussion, agree with it or not. Yours (and now mine) is just noise.
BelleOfTheBall 6y ago
That's a gross exaggeration of how much pull Apple has. I'm no fan of it or how much data these new devices will collect but saying "the school you attend, the church where you worship" is some Twitter-comments level of hysteria. Yes, we should be worried about corporations owning too much and having too much power. No, Apple isn't going to buy up schools and churches.
- jacobwilliamroy 6y ago
  Apple easily can own all the computers in the public schools. The software on the computers in the schools. The textbooks in the schools. All these things are made by corporations. I see no reason why apple can't supplant pearson, though it's more likely that microsoft will be the one controlling public education in 40 years, not Apple. As for churches, obviously apple isn't going to go buy a christian church, just like they're not going to literally buy a school. But I can easily imagine Apple replacing church, facilitating it through Apple video-chat apps. That could happen today. In 50 years they could even have their own religion on par with scientology. Think long-term. Capitalism doesn't stop. If you really think Apple is going to stop, you're naive. No one stops until the government says 'no', and we've slowly been eroding the government's ability to say 'no' over the last 20 years, through case law, deregulation, defunding, abdication of legislative power to the alphabet agencies of the executive branch (which are mostly staffed by private contractors by the way). I'm not hysterical. I'm paying attention. The IRS ordered production of documents from microsoft 8 months ago, and to the best of my knowledge, microsoft has not complied. If the IRS can't audit microsoft for 30 BILLION DOLLARS, do you really think they can audit Apple, or Amazon, or any similar sized organization? This is the real deal. Our government is being destroyed to make way for monopoly expansion. This expansion is crushing the small businesses, 'little people' and free market innovation which HN claims to love so dearly. And profit-driven corporations are stepping in to replace our public welfare-driven institutions.
servercobra 6y ago
That's a bit of hyperbole to go from fitness classes to owning hospitals/churches/food.
turdnagel 6y ago
I don’t think this comment should be downvoted because I think it’s worth addressing directly. So, no. I don’t like that. Do you think Apple is going to start buying churches? Why?
newscracker 6y ago
GP here. I agree with your point (and upvoted it to counter some downvotes). I am indeed concerned about the kind of power concentration that Apple has with its user base, and I certainly have disagreements with its App Store and its fight against Right to Repair. At the same time, I also see a lot of value in the Apple products and services that I use, especially when combined with its stance on privacy (which is far ahead of any other large tech company). I’m just hoping, perhaps naively, that Apple doesn’t become like Google or Facebook or Amazon.
greenpizza13 6y ago
> Can't you see where they're going with this? Can you see the slippery slope you're invoking? Apple owns the operating system you use. That is where it stops in your example. They don't force ownership of software, the network stack, the gym you visit (lol), where you work, etc. Where's your head at, other than "ApPlE BaD"?
- kmonsen 6y ago
  Right, but it is almost impossible for anyone else to compete in the ecosystem. If another major fitness brand wants to do the same the probably cannot because: - The tight integration is not possible, only Apple can build these kind of Apple Watch experiences. - They would need to pay Apple 30%, maybe making this not profitable especially against Apple's own offering that can have internal pricing where the 30% never comes into play.
  - clajiness 6y ago
    Peloton’s doing a great job, they have an Apple Watch app, and I don’t believe Apple is getting 30% out of them. Peloton’s ecosystem is awesome.
    - kmonsen 6y ago
      I have a peloton bike and I love it. I also like to run with peloton outdoors, but I can’t do that with just the Apple Watch. It seems likely the Apple will offer something similar for their service that will work with watch only.
  - prawn 6y ago
    Probably not as tight as their integration, but we have a (far less polished, but effectively made by one person) workout app with Watch and Music integration. On Watch, iPhone, iPad and Apple TV. One-time cost though as opposed to their monthly subscription.
- jacobwilliamroy 6y ago
  Apple owns your operating system, your hardware. It sells networking devices, printers, misc. peripherals. It offers service as software replacements, for email, file hosting, navigation, speech recognition. Apple has a marketplace for software. It has a marketplace for books. It has a marketplace for multimedia entertainment. It has its own tv. You can handcuff an apple device to your wrist, and let them own your watch, your voice, your fingerprints. Get your head out of the sand.
ogre_codes 6y ago
> Do you like the idea of Apple owning... This is what bothers me. I think there is a lot of evidence Apple's claims that they keep as much of this data on-device as possible. Even so, Apple's increasing dominance in certain aspects of my life bothers me. After watching Google progress from being a company I loved and respected into a gross corporation, I'm concerned will eventually follow suit. Even if you assume Apple's current management are a bunch of great guys, in 10 years Cook might get replaced by a corrupt douchebag. It's concerning. But at the same time I appreciate the previous posters view as well, I'd rather not have my information painted across dozens of small companies who are easily acquired.
- hevelvarik 6y ago
  Honest question, when was Google any different than they are now. What would have been their business model?
  - ogre_codes 6y ago
    When Google started they sold the platform based on better search results with an interface that didn't put advertiser content above organic results. Now you usutally don't see organic results without scrolling. When Google first started advertising, they didn't have the massive tracking network they have now. Advertising was based on surfacing advertising related to the terms you searched for and was often relevant to what you wanted. They were profitable enough under that model to buy You Tube, Android, and many of the other services now under the Google umbrella. I would assume their business model would continue to be selling advertising based on relevant search terms.
    - hevelvarik 6y ago
      Good answer, thanks!

aYsY4dDQ2NrcNzA 6y ago

Please spell it out. I’d like to know which flavor of dystopia you’re picturing.

zepto 6y ago

It would have been nice if Google hadn’t betrayed their promise of Android being open. Then we’d have had a good alternative.

chromedev 6y ago
Google didn't betray their promise. Android is open source and Apple not Microsoft have open sourced their operating system.
- Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
  With each new release, more and more parts of Android are reliant on proprietary Google APIs. It is known. If you remove everything Google from Android 19, you'll be surprised how little it can do.
  - chromedev 6y ago
    Little as in what? You're being very vague. Do you want to use official Google Apps without the Google APIs? At least the OS is open source, but I can have a very functional device without needing gapps. Same with COS on their cloud platform. Apple is actively preventing users from even installing apps outside their app store.
    - Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
      I think by now it is common knowledge in anyone interested in this subject. A good place to start is this ArsTechnica post from 2013 (updated in 2018) [1]. One nice user on Reddit made a list [2] of AOSP apps replaced by Google: Google Services Framework removed in 1.1, replaced by Google Play Services Search removed in 1.5, replaced by Google Music removed in 2.3, replaced by Play Music Browser removed in 4.2, replaced by Chrome. Calendar removed in 4.4, replaced by Calendar (G) PinyinIME removed in 4.4, replaced by Google Pinyin IME Gallery removed in 5.0, replaced by Photos (G) Messaging removed in 6.0, replaced by Messages (G) Camera removed in 6.0, replaced by Camera (G) LatinIME removed in 6.0, replaced by GBoard. Contacts removed in 7.0, replaced by Contacts (G) Phone removed in 7.1, replaced by Dialer (G) Clock removed in 8.1, replaced by Clock (G) Calculator removed in 9.0, replaced by Calculator (G). This extends to APIs too. For example, Android Location API [3] has a very nice warning on the documentation page: > This API is not the recommended method for accessing Android location. The Google Location Services API, part of Google Play services, is the preferred way to add location-awareness to your app. It offers a simpler API, higher accuracy, low-power geofencing, and more. If you are currently using the android.location API, you are strongly encouraged to switch to the Google Location Services API as soon as possible. To learn more about the Google Location Services API, see the Location API overview. Hope I removed some vagueness left by my previous comment. [1]: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/07/googles-iron-grip-on-android-controlling-open-source-by-any-means-necessary/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/07/googles-iron-grip-on... [2]: https://www.reddit.com/r/fossdroid/comments/c332yr/what_impedes_google_from_moving_other_aosp_apis/ https://www.reddit.com/r/fossdroid/comments/c332yr/what_impe... [3]: https://developer.android.com/reference/android/location/package-summary https://developer.android.com/reference/android/location/pac...
      - chromedev 6y ago
        Android Location API uses Google services to provide better location data using Wifi hotpsots and other devices. I wouldn't expect to be able to use Google services without Google. You don't have to use it and get accurate results without it as well. As you can see they also provide examples of alternative apps that can be used that do not rely on Google, or you can install F-Droid and use apps from the open source marketplace that are open source as well. This is much more than Apple, who won't even let you install apps outside their app store. While it would be nice for Google to open source their apps as well, they aren't necessary and there are plenty of alternatives and phone manufacturers who have built their entire reputation on providing an alternative to the Google experience while using Android.
- zepto 6y ago
  The claim that Android is open source has long been false. Yes, there is AOSP, but that’s only a small part of what constitutes an OS these days. Here’s a link to a post showing how dismal things are: https://bitcannon.net/post/finding-an-alternative-to-ios/ https://bitcannon.net/post/finding-an-alternative-to-ios/
  - chromedev 6y ago
    Does that mean that Linux needs to have Gnome to be considered an OS?
    - zepto 6y ago
      Why would it?
      - chromedev 6y ago
        Because that is all the Google apps are really, are one iteration of a group of apps for functionality. You can always use F-Droid and install great open source alternatives.
        zepto 6y ago
        The fact that you can install a different operating system on some android phones doesn’t mean that the Android that phone manufacturers actually use is open source. Indeed the fact that you have to install a different operating system that isn’t even called “Android” proves that Android as people know it is not open source.

cycrutchfield 6y ago

Honestly it's hard to hear you over the sound of the tinfoil crinkling. Could you please speak up?

Dahoon 6y ago
At least his comment contributed something to the discussion, agree with it or not. Yours (and now mine) is just noise.

BelleOfTheBall 6y ago

That's a gross exaggeration of how much pull Apple has. I'm no fan of it or how much data these new devices will collect but saying "the school you attend, the church where you worship" is some Twitter-comments level of hysteria. Yes, we should be worried about corporations owning too much and having too much power. No, Apple isn't going to buy up schools and churches.

jacobwilliamroy 6y ago
Apple easily can own all the computers in the public schools. The software on the computers in the schools. The textbooks in the schools. All these things are made by corporations. I see no reason why apple can't supplant pearson, though it's more likely that microsoft will be the one controlling public education in 40 years, not Apple. As for churches, obviously apple isn't going to go buy a christian church, just like they're not going to literally buy a school. But I can easily imagine Apple replacing church, facilitating it through Apple video-chat apps. That could happen today. In 50 years they could even have their own religion on par with scientology. Think long-term. Capitalism doesn't stop. If you really think Apple is going to stop, you're naive. No one stops until the government says 'no', and we've slowly been eroding the government's ability to say 'no' over the last 20 years, through case law, deregulation, defunding, abdication of legislative power to the alphabet agencies of the executive branch (which are mostly staffed by private contractors by the way). I'm not hysterical. I'm paying attention. The IRS ordered production of documents from microsoft 8 months ago, and to the best of my knowledge, microsoft has not complied. If the IRS can't audit microsoft for 30 BILLION DOLLARS, do you really think they can audit Apple, or Amazon, or any similar sized organization? This is the real deal. Our government is being destroyed to make way for monopoly expansion. This expansion is crushing the small businesses, 'little people' and free market innovation which HN claims to love so dearly. And profit-driven corporations are stepping in to replace our public welfare-driven institutions.

servercobra 6y ago

That's a bit of hyperbole to go from fitness classes to owning hospitals/churches/food.

turdnagel 6y ago

I don’t think this comment should be downvoted because I think it’s worth addressing directly. So, no. I don’t like that. Do you think Apple is going to start buying churches? Why?

newscracker 6y ago

GP here. I agree with your point (and upvoted it to counter some downvotes). I am indeed concerned about the kind of power concentration that Apple has with its user base, and I certainly have disagreements with its App Store and its fight against Right to Repair. At the same time, I also see a lot of value in the Apple products and services that I use, especially when combined with its stance on privacy (which is far ahead of any other large tech company). I’m just hoping, perhaps naively, that Apple doesn’t become like Google or Facebook or Amazon.

greenpizza13 6y ago

> Can't you see where they're going with this? Can you see the slippery slope you're invoking? Apple owns the operating system you use. That is where it stops in your example. They don't force ownership of software, the network stack, the gym you visit (lol), where you work, etc. Where's your head at, other than "ApPlE BaD"?

kmonsen 6y ago
Right, but it is almost impossible for anyone else to compete in the ecosystem. If another major fitness brand wants to do the same the probably cannot because: - The tight integration is not possible, only Apple can build these kind of Apple Watch experiences. - They would need to pay Apple 30%, maybe making this not profitable especially against Apple's own offering that can have internal pricing where the 30% never comes into play.
- clajiness 6y ago
  Peloton’s doing a great job, they have an Apple Watch app, and I don’t believe Apple is getting 30% out of them. Peloton’s ecosystem is awesome.
  - kmonsen 6y ago
    I have a peloton bike and I love it. I also like to run with peloton outdoors, but I can’t do that with just the Apple Watch. It seems likely the Apple will offer something similar for their service that will work with watch only.
- prawn 6y ago
  Probably not as tight as their integration, but we have a (far less polished, but effectively made by one person) workout app with Watch and Music integration. On Watch, iPhone, iPad and Apple TV. One-time cost though as opposed to their monthly subscription.
jacobwilliamroy 6y ago
Apple owns your operating system, your hardware. It sells networking devices, printers, misc. peripherals. It offers service as software replacements, for email, file hosting, navigation, speech recognition. Apple has a marketplace for software. It has a marketplace for books. It has a marketplace for multimedia entertainment. It has its own tv. You can handcuff an apple device to your wrist, and let them own your watch, your voice, your fingerprints. Get your head out of the sand.

ogre_codes 6y ago

> Do you like the idea of Apple owning... This is what bothers me. I think there is a lot of evidence Apple's claims that they keep as much of this data on-device as possible. Even so, Apple's increasing dominance in certain aspects of my life bothers me. After watching Google progress from being a company I loved and respected into a gross corporation, I'm concerned will eventually follow suit. Even if you assume Apple's current management are a bunch of great guys, in 10 years Cook might get replaced by a corrupt douchebag. It's concerning. But at the same time I appreciate the previous posters view as well, I'd rather not have my information painted across dozens of small companies who are easily acquired.

hevelvarik 6y ago
Honest question, when was Google any different than they are now. What would have been their business model?
- ogre_codes 6y ago
  When Google started they sold the platform based on better search results with an interface that didn't put advertiser content above organic results. Now you usutally don't see organic results without scrolling. When Google first started advertising, they didn't have the massive tracking network they have now. Advertising was based on surfacing advertising related to the terms you searched for and was often relevant to what you wanted. They were profitable enough under that model to buy You Tube, Android, and many of the other services now under the Google umbrella. I would assume their business model would continue to be selling advertising based on relevant search terms.
  - hevelvarik 6y ago
    Good answer, thanks!