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First, I don't care whether it's illegal; lying to people is wrong. Second, the definitions for fraud vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, but the course of

by nickff 6y ago

First, I don't care whether it's illegal; lying to people is wrong. Second, the definitions for fraud vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, but the course of action recommended here falls under the common definition of civil fraud: >"Somebody misrepresents a material fact in order to obtain action or forbearance by another person; >"The other person relies upon the misrepresentation; and >"The other person suffers injury as a result of the act or forbearance taken in reliance upon the misrepresentation" Third, a time limit is not duress unless there are other exigent circumstances. Duress is usually defined as:"threats, violence, constraints, or other action brought to bear on someone to do something against their will or better judgment." Getting someone to accept a slightly lower salary is not 'against their will or better judgement', it's just a negotiation.

user5994461 6y ago
Economic duress is recognized as duress. That the candidate is rejected from the job if too slow, having no job and no income to eat is quite a strong duress. Obviously there would be extra context in practice, whether the candidate has a job, has already resigned, etc... The typical HN commenter in SF already working at FAANG might not be an ideal scenario ^^ Anyway, there's no fraud or misrepresentation, as long as the candidate intended to join the company at the time of signing. If anything, the candidate moving to another company is evidence that they were really looking to move, thus there was no misrepresentation on his intention to leave.
- nickff 6y ago
  Agreeing to provide a service on a specific date, then offering the same service to others, and withdrawing from the first agreement upon receipt of a better offer is wrong. You might not agree with that, but it's how I see things. What would you think if the companies and individuals you interacted with were constantly backing out of signed deals?
pnw_hazor 6y ago
It is not a lie to accept a later offered better deal. The better offer might never come through. Would you really begrudge someone who left for an opportunity that is better for them? You are mixing up loyalty with persons with loyalty to companies. The former is important the latter is foolhardy.
- nickff 6y ago
  What would you think if a company regularly retracted offers upon finding better candidates? Opposite side of the same coin.
  - pnw_hazor 6y ago
    Companies do. It happens all the time with usually no recourse for the candidate. One time a startup hired me and a buddy as contractors (expensive contractors) to help with their push to release. They had hired a bunch of junior (it seemed) marketing/sales/bizdevs types around the same time too. Two weeks later just about everyone was fired except the two expensive contractors (me and my buddy). I found out because I could hear some of the outgoing employees crying at their desk. One day they are eagerly working overtime to prep for a trade show, next day they are packing their stuff. Soon thereafter, my project was canceled and I was reassigned to other work for a few weeks while I looked for somewhere else to work. It's a Great Day at Hall Kinion was awesome on that gig too. I asked my handler to find me a new position, instead she setup an ambush meeting with me and the CTO to discuss why I wanted to leave. I couldn't believe it.

by nickff 6y ago

user5994461 6y ago

Economic duress is recognized as duress. That the candidate is rejected from the job if too slow, having no job and no income to eat is quite a strong duress. Obviously there would be extra context in practice, whether the candidate has a job, has already resigned, etc... The typical HN commenter in SF already working at FAANG might not be an ideal scenario ^^ Anyway, there's no fraud or misrepresentation, as long as the candidate intended to join the company at the time of signing. If anything, the candidate moving to another company is evidence that they were really looking to move, thus there was no misrepresentation on his intention to leave.

nickff 6y ago
Agreeing to provide a service on a specific date, then offering the same service to others, and withdrawing from the first agreement upon receipt of a better offer is wrong. You might not agree with that, but it's how I see things. What would you think if the companies and individuals you interacted with were constantly backing out of signed deals?

pnw_hazor 6y ago

It is not a lie to accept a later offered better deal. The better offer might never come through. Would you really begrudge someone who left for an opportunity that is better for them? You are mixing up loyalty with persons with loyalty to companies. The former is important the latter is foolhardy.

nickff 6y ago
What would you think if a company regularly retracted offers upon finding better candidates? Opposite side of the same coin.
- pnw_hazor 6y ago
  Companies do. It happens all the time with usually no recourse for the candidate. One time a startup hired me and a buddy as contractors (expensive contractors) to help with their push to release. They had hired a bunch of junior (it seemed) marketing/sales/bizdevs types around the same time too. Two weeks later just about everyone was fired except the two expensive contractors (me and my buddy). I found out because I could hear some of the outgoing employees crying at their desk. One day they are eagerly working overtime to prep for a trade show, next day they are packing their stuff. Soon thereafter, my project was canceled and I was reassigned to other work for a few weeks while I looked for somewhere else to work. It's a Great Day at Hall Kinion was awesome on that gig too. I asked my handler to find me a new position, instead she setup an ambush meeting with me and the CTO to discuss why I wanted to leave. I couldn't believe it.