5 ms·

If you want to play the legal game, the contract is void because it was signed under duress. Forcing the employee to sign in 24h qualifies as consent under dure

If you want to play the legal game, the contract is void because it was signed under duress. Forcing the employee to sign in 24h qualifies as consent under duress, not free consent.

nickff 6y ago
First, I don't care whether it's illegal; lying to people is wrong. Second, the definitions for fraud vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, but the course of action recommended here falls under the common definition of civil fraud: >"Somebody misrepresents a material fact in order to obtain action or forbearance by another person; >"The other person relies upon the misrepresentation; and >"The other person suffers injury as a result of the act or forbearance taken in reliance upon the misrepresentation" Third, a time limit is not duress unless there are other exigent circumstances. Duress is usually defined as:"threats, violence, constraints, or other action brought to bear on someone to do something against their will or better judgment." Getting someone to accept a slightly lower salary is not 'against their will or better judgement', it's just a negotiation.
- user5994461 6y ago
  Economic duress is recognized as duress. That the candidate is rejected from the job if too slow, having no job and no income to eat is quite a strong duress. Obviously there would be extra context in practice, whether the candidate has a job, has already resigned, etc... The typical HN commenter in SF already working at FAANG might not be an ideal scenario ^^ Anyway, there's no fraud or misrepresentation, as long as the candidate intended to join the company at the time of signing. If anything, the candidate moving to another company is evidence that they were really looking to move, thus there was no misrepresentation on his intention to leave.
  - nickff 6y ago
    Agreeing to provide a service on a specific date, then offering the same service to others, and withdrawing from the first agreement upon receipt of a better offer is wrong. You might not agree with that, but it's how I see things. What would you think if the companies and individuals you interacted with were constantly backing out of signed deals?
- pnw_hazor 6y ago
  It is not a lie to accept a later offered better deal. The better offer might never come through. Would you really begrudge someone who left for an opportunity that is better for them? You are mixing up loyalty with persons with loyalty to companies. The former is important the latter is foolhardy.
  - nickff 6y ago
    What would you think if a company regularly retracted offers upon finding better candidates? Opposite side of the same coin.
    - pnw_hazor 6y ago
      Companies do. It happens all the time with usually no recourse for the candidate. One time a startup hired me and a buddy as contractors (expensive contractors) to help with their push to release. They had hired a bunch of junior (it seemed) marketing/sales/bizdevs types around the same time too. Two weeks later just about everyone was fired except the two expensive contractors (me and my buddy). I found out because I could hear some of the outgoing employees crying at their desk. One day they are eagerly working overtime to prep for a trade show, next day they are packing their stuff. Soon thereafter, my project was canceled and I was reassigned to other work for a few weeks while I looked for somewhere else to work. It's a Great Day at Hall Kinion was awesome on that gig too. I asked my handler to find me a new position, instead she setup an ambush meeting with me and the CTO to discuss why I wanted to leave. I couldn't believe it.
pnw_hazor 6y ago
Employment offers in the US rarely establish contract. Employers often rescind offers that have been accepted by persons for a variety of reasons. Similar for employees. Sometimes a party that can show they relied on the offer and then suffered money damages after it was rescinded can get some relief in court, but it is rare. Typically these cases are folks who accept an offer, quit their job, and move across the country only to have the offer rescinded or the position is eliminated soon after they start. Most often employees harmed this way lose in court unless there is strong proof that the employer knew they were ending the position before making the offer.
- FireBeyond 6y ago
  Absolutely. From one of my other posts: > I have a PA friend who was offered a job in Alaska, relocating his home and family from WA. Job was offered, signed, and less than two weeks prior to start, when the house was on the market, and trucks loaded, he got an email. > "The urgent care clinic has been sold to another company. As part of their review of the clinic, assets and employees, they are rescinding your offer indefinitely. Thank you for your interest in the position." He got compensation without having to go to court when he made mention of the fact that it wasn't a surprise to the clinic that they were being sold, nor would it be unexpected that the new purchaser may (would) want a financial review, and final say on new hires.

If you want to play the legal game, the contract is void because it was signed under duress. Forcing the employee to sign in 24h qualifies as consent under duress, not free consent.

nickff 6y ago

First, I don't care whether it's illegal; lying to people is wrong. Second, the definitions for fraud vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, but the course of action recommended here falls under the common definition of civil fraud: >"Somebody misrepresents a material fact in order to obtain action or forbearance by another person; >"The other person relies upon the misrepresentation; and >"The other person suffers injury as a result of the act or forbearance taken in reliance upon the misrepresentation" Third, a time limit is not duress unless there are other exigent circumstances. Duress is usually defined as:"threats, violence, constraints, or other action brought to bear on someone to do something against their will or better judgment." Getting someone to accept a slightly lower salary is not 'against their will or better judgement', it's just a negotiation.

user5994461 6y ago
Economic duress is recognized as duress. That the candidate is rejected from the job if too slow, having no job and no income to eat is quite a strong duress. Obviously there would be extra context in practice, whether the candidate has a job, has already resigned, etc... The typical HN commenter in SF already working at FAANG might not be an ideal scenario ^^ Anyway, there's no fraud or misrepresentation, as long as the candidate intended to join the company at the time of signing. If anything, the candidate moving to another company is evidence that they were really looking to move, thus there was no misrepresentation on his intention to leave.
- nickff 6y ago
  Agreeing to provide a service on a specific date, then offering the same service to others, and withdrawing from the first agreement upon receipt of a better offer is wrong. You might not agree with that, but it's how I see things. What would you think if the companies and individuals you interacted with were constantly backing out of signed deals?
pnw_hazor 6y ago
It is not a lie to accept a later offered better deal. The better offer might never come through. Would you really begrudge someone who left for an opportunity that is better for them? You are mixing up loyalty with persons with loyalty to companies. The former is important the latter is foolhardy.
- nickff 6y ago
  What would you think if a company regularly retracted offers upon finding better candidates? Opposite side of the same coin.
  - pnw_hazor 6y ago
    Companies do. It happens all the time with usually no recourse for the candidate. One time a startup hired me and a buddy as contractors (expensive contractors) to help with their push to release. They had hired a bunch of junior (it seemed) marketing/sales/bizdevs types around the same time too. Two weeks later just about everyone was fired except the two expensive contractors (me and my buddy). I found out because I could hear some of the outgoing employees crying at their desk. One day they are eagerly working overtime to prep for a trade show, next day they are packing their stuff. Soon thereafter, my project was canceled and I was reassigned to other work for a few weeks while I looked for somewhere else to work. It's a Great Day at Hall Kinion was awesome on that gig too. I asked my handler to find me a new position, instead she setup an ambush meeting with me and the CTO to discuss why I wanted to leave. I couldn't believe it.

pnw_hazor 6y ago

Employment offers in the US rarely establish contract. Employers often rescind offers that have been accepted by persons for a variety of reasons. Similar for employees. Sometimes a party that can show they relied on the offer and then suffered money damages after it was rescinded can get some relief in court, but it is rare. Typically these cases are folks who accept an offer, quit their job, and move across the country only to have the offer rescinded or the position is eliminated soon after they start. Most often employees harmed this way lose in court unless there is strong proof that the employer knew they were ending the position before making the offer.

FireBeyond 6y ago
Absolutely. From one of my other posts: > I have a PA friend who was offered a job in Alaska, relocating his home and family from WA. Job was offered, signed, and less than two weeks prior to start, when the house was on the market, and trucks loaded, he got an email. > "The urgent care clinic has been sold to another company. As part of their review of the clinic, assets and employees, they are rescinding your offer indefinitely. Thank you for your interest in the position." He got compensation without having to go to court when he made mention of the fact that it wasn't a surprise to the clinic that they were being sold, nor would it be unexpected that the new purchaser may (would) want a financial review, and final say on new hires.