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Free software has value far beyond just computing education. Whether you want to learn to code or not, there’s a distinctly asymmetric power relationship that y

Free software has value far beyond just computing education. Whether you want to learn to code or not, there’s a distinctly asymmetric power relationship that you inevitably end up in if you use proprietary software. Think about the pervasive data collection you see in many mainstream applications and devices now: smart TVs perform content recognition to try and figure out what you’re watching, VR headsets track much of what you do in VR and report back to the manufacturer, mobile apps look for information that can be used to identify users across apps to aggregate data about their users. Do you think these kinds of things would be so widespread if we were all using free software? Sure, not everyone is a programmer, but those of us who are could inspect the software and patch out all the tracking code. Even without that, though, I think the additional transparency would make companies less likely to do things like this.

EricE 6y ago
"there’s a distinctly asymmetric power relationship that you inevitably end up in if you use proprietary software." Yes, all proprietary software vendors are stereotypical mustache twirling villains. This is the kind of overheated rhetoric that causes people to tune out open source advocates. Also I don't need open source software to see that vendors have tracking code. I also don't have to use their software. I have yet to hook a smart TV up to the internet and have zero intention of ever doing so. A lot of people hook up smart TVs to the Internet because it's the easiest path to get to the Netflix app. You think they are going to swap out the code on their TV even if it was a choice? That's delusional. It would be far easier for them to just plug in an Apple TV if privacy is a top concern - but sadly for most people privacy isn't a concern. As for VR headsets they are such a niche case, other than us nerds it's not even on the mainstream radar. And once it gets to a point where it is more mainstream there will no doubt be companies like Apple making a big deal about Privacy being a key differentiator for them. So yeah, you might have a quicker path if everything was open source and you had the capability to do it yourself, but open source is hardly the ONLY path to get these results.
- ryukafalz 6y ago
  >Yes, all proprietary software vendors are stereotypical mustache twirling villains. I didn't say they were all evil or malicious. I said there is an asymmetric power relationship. This is true whether or not you trust the vendor. You might! But it's good to be aware of it nonetheless, and to think about: - How much do you trust them? - Are they incentivized to keep your data safe and private? - Do you think you'll still be able to trust them 5 years from now? To varying degrees, the platform owner has a significant say over your use of the platform. It's more pronounced the more locked-down the platform is, but for example: if Apple doesn't want you to run some software on iOS, it's going to be very difficult for you to run that software. If Microsoft decides to push an update to Windows that adds more intrusive telemetry, you have little choice; Windows is going to force an update and you're going to get that telemetry whether you like it or not. >Also I don't need open source software to see that vendors have tracking code. You don't necessarily, but it's a hell of a lot easier to tell if you can see the source code. >You think they are going to swap out the code on their TV even if it was a choice? That's delusional. It would be far easier for them to just plug in an Apple TV if privacy is a top concern - but sadly for most people privacy isn't a concern. Just looked up the current top-selling TVs on Amazon, this one[0] is currently #1, selling for $130. Adding an Apple TV to the mix ($150 for the base model) would more than double that cost. You, me, and probably most people on this site can easily afford that - but for a lot of people that's a more difficult choice. Yes, I absolutely believe that some people would replace applications on their TVs with alternatives with less surveillance - possibly many people, if the process were easy. [0] https://www.amazon.com/TCL-32S325-Inch-720p-Smart/dp/B07G9XZ83W https://www.amazon.com/TCL-32S325-Inch-720p-Smart/dp/B07G9XZ...
- murgindrag 6y ago
  > Yes, all proprietary software vendors are stereotypical mustache twirling villains. Markets force businesses to act in certain ways. You're making the fallacy of assigning personal malice to normal organizational dynamics. The goal of a good regulatory regime is to have businesses operate in the public good (from a 100,000 foot view). Yes, if we legalized slavery, we'd have slaves and plantations again. If we legalized arbitrary pollution, businesses would kill the environment. If we got rid of employee safety protections, people would start losing limbs. It's a free market economy. That's what happens. If I produce a product for a buck less than you, I'll stay in business and you won't. That drives low prices and high efficiency, and then regulations constrain that to prevent those from happening. My own opinion is that anything which isn't open ought to have a 2% sales tax on it. If my microwave ships with source code, mechanical, and electrical schematics, Walmart can sell if for $49. If not, they can sell it for $50. I think that's actually enough to push the economy to where everything which can reasonably be open becomes open. Mice, keyboard, printers -- all the basic stuff. And the stuff where closed is the secret sauce would stay closed.

EricE 6y ago

"there’s a distinctly asymmetric power relationship that you inevitably end up in if you use proprietary software." Yes, all proprietary software vendors are stereotypical mustache twirling villains. This is the kind of overheated rhetoric that causes people to tune out open source advocates. Also I don't need open source software to see that vendors have tracking code. I also don't have to use their software. I have yet to hook a smart TV up to the internet and have zero intention of ever doing so. A lot of people hook up smart TVs to the Internet because it's the easiest path to get to the Netflix app. You think they are going to swap out the code on their TV even if it was a choice? That's delusional. It would be far easier for them to just plug in an Apple TV if privacy is a top concern - but sadly for most people privacy isn't a concern. As for VR headsets they are such a niche case, other than us nerds it's not even on the mainstream radar. And once it gets to a point where it is more mainstream there will no doubt be companies like Apple making a big deal about Privacy being a key differentiator for them. So yeah, you might have a quicker path if everything was open source and you had the capability to do it yourself, but open source is hardly the ONLY path to get these results.

ryukafalz 6y ago
>Yes, all proprietary software vendors are stereotypical mustache twirling villains. I didn't say they were all evil or malicious. I said there is an asymmetric power relationship. This is true whether or not you trust the vendor. You might! But it's good to be aware of it nonetheless, and to think about: - How much do you trust them? - Are they incentivized to keep your data safe and private? - Do you think you'll still be able to trust them 5 years from now? To varying degrees, the platform owner has a significant say over your use of the platform. It's more pronounced the more locked-down the platform is, but for example: if Apple doesn't want you to run some software on iOS, it's going to be very difficult for you to run that software. If Microsoft decides to push an update to Windows that adds more intrusive telemetry, you have little choice; Windows is going to force an update and you're going to get that telemetry whether you like it or not. >Also I don't need open source software to see that vendors have tracking code. You don't necessarily, but it's a hell of a lot easier to tell if you can see the source code. >You think they are going to swap out the code on their TV even if it was a choice? That's delusional. It would be far easier for them to just plug in an Apple TV if privacy is a top concern - but sadly for most people privacy isn't a concern. Just looked up the current top-selling TVs on Amazon, this one[0] is currently #1, selling for $130. Adding an Apple TV to the mix ($150 for the base model) would more than double that cost. You, me, and probably most people on this site can easily afford that - but for a lot of people that's a more difficult choice. Yes, I absolutely believe that some people would replace applications on their TVs with alternatives with less surveillance - possibly many people, if the process were easy. [0] https://www.amazon.com/TCL-32S325-Inch-720p-Smart/dp/B07G9XZ83W https://www.amazon.com/TCL-32S325-Inch-720p-Smart/dp/B07G9XZ...
murgindrag 6y ago
> Yes, all proprietary software vendors are stereotypical mustache twirling villains. Markets force businesses to act in certain ways. You're making the fallacy of assigning personal malice to normal organizational dynamics. The goal of a good regulatory regime is to have businesses operate in the public good (from a 100,000 foot view). Yes, if we legalized slavery, we'd have slaves and plantations again. If we legalized arbitrary pollution, businesses would kill the environment. If we got rid of employee safety protections, people would start losing limbs. It's a free market economy. That's what happens. If I produce a product for a buck less than you, I'll stay in business and you won't. That drives low prices and high efficiency, and then regulations constrain that to prevent those from happening. My own opinion is that anything which isn't open ought to have a 2% sales tax on it. If my microwave ships with source code, mechanical, and electrical schematics, Walmart can sell if for $49. If not, they can sell it for $50. I think that's actually enough to push the economy to where everything which can reasonably be open becomes open. Mice, keyboard, printers -- all the basic stuff. And the stuff where closed is the secret sauce would stay closed.