4 ms·

I wrote this in response to your previous post, which was flagged: I don't think this rioting, violence, and general unrest should be compared to the Brown Shi

I wrote this in response to your previous post, which was flagged: I don't think this rioting, violence, and general unrest should be compared to the Brown Shirts. Groups engaging in "antagonism and murder towards people they perceived as evil" are not uncommon in history. An analogy to the Nazis in the 30s seems out of place because, as you say, of everything that the Nazis did after the 30s. If you want to talk to about ideologues, people for whom the ends justify the means, people who are willing to engage in violence and destruction for ideological goals, then you can make a comparison here. You can put the Brown Shirts in this category, you can put current rioters in this category, you can put a large number of historical groups in this category, and I think this categorization is fair. (Note that sometimes this violence may even be justified). But why pick the Nazis in particular for your comparison? Comparing this group or that group to the Nazis is almost always rhetorical trick precisely because of the Holocaust. Why not pick some other group in history that used violence to pursue its ideological goals but didn't boil over into a genocide? The answer is that, if you picked another group, the rhetorical power of the comparison would be lost. But it would be a more honest comparison.

DaniloDias 6y ago
>>But why pick the Nazis in particular for your comparison? Reason 1) It is the historical event that parallels which most people have at least some familiarity with, however I don’t believe most people actually know much about the brownshirts. All I know of it comes from history books- and who knows how accurate they are. Reason 2) I don’t think the brownshirts are the best model. In fact, I think it actually better mirrors the cultural revolution, but most Americans have no idea about the details of those years, so pointing to a scenario that is more accurate but less well understood wouldn’t yield much. I have spoken with people who lived through the cultural revolution and what they said about then sounds an awful lot like what is happening now. If I hadn’t had experiences like this, I wouldn’t have this opinion- but my personal anecdote doesn’t scale. Most Americans don’t understand just how bonkers the thinking got during the cultural revolution. The “garden” in Seattle’s “CHOP” has almost direct parallels to the kind of thinking of the maoists. Btw- I didn’t pick the Nazi comparison, OP did. I don’t think it’s great, but there are parallels. Despite the weaknesses, I’d still argue that this is a defensible historical example. What would you offer as an alternative? I’ve not seen a single person in the BLM protests I would call inspiring. I see unchecked emotion and anger that regularly decays into raw hatred. There is no MLK in this movement- there are no leaders that offer a vision that everyone can believe in. Since BLM is an org with such “expertise” in what white people think, you would think they would cynically propose a soft spoken figurehead who says inspirational things. Instead, we get adversarial confrontation on the “fact” that all white people are racist and only white and white adjacent people can be racist. This is idiotic marketing strategy. You’d think they would avoid antagonizing their customer if they were serious about positive change. So if disruptive confrontation is the path to solving a cultural problem, brownshirt comparisons make a hell of a lot of sense.
- scollet 6y ago
  > Since BLM is an org with such “expertise” in what white people think, you would think they would cynically propose a soft spoken figurehead who says inspirational things. Instead, we get adversarial confrontation on the “fact” that all white people are racist and only white and white adjacent people can be racist. This is idiotic marketing strategy. You’d think they would avoid antagonizing their customer if they were serious about positive change. Wow. You really are a racist. Or at least an authoritarian on some level. You want people of color to convince you - a task of which is not theirs to fulfill - that they should have basic social rights in the US. You then refuse to be convinced because they aren't 'being nice' about it? How on earth is fighting for social and civil rights a task of political suppression? BLM represents a bloc that has been disincentivised from voting from the founding of America until 2020. Something screams authoritarian, and it certainly isn't protesting.
  - DaniloDias 6y ago
    I don’t ask anything of any people of color. I am surprised you would use your privilege to assume I am not black.
- leftyted 6y ago
  I think comparisons to the civil rights movements of the past are valid and I agree that current movements compare unfavorably to the past ones. I'll just repeat that I think it's a significant mistake to make analogies to Nazis or Maoists.
  - qqqwerty 6y ago
    MLK is being used disingenuously by the right[1]. He was treated very similar to BLM during his activism and his death was openly celebrated by some political figures on the right. BLM has very consciously decided to foster a leaderless movement to prevent the vilification tactics used by right wing media to discredit movements (see AOC, Hillary, Kaepernick, etc..)[2] [1] https://therecount.com/watch/revisionist-history-martin-luther-king-jr/2645862179 https://therecount.com/watch/revisionist-history-martin-luth... [2] https://www.politico.com/news/2020/07/22/black-lives-matter-movement-leader-377369 https://www.politico.com/news/2020/07/22/black-lives-matter-...

DaniloDias 6y ago

>>But why pick the Nazis in particular for your comparison? Reason 1) It is the historical event that parallels which most people have at least some familiarity with, however I don’t believe most people actually know much about the brownshirts. All I know of it comes from history books- and who knows how accurate they are. Reason 2) I don’t think the brownshirts are the best model. In fact, I think it actually better mirrors the cultural revolution, but most Americans have no idea about the details of those years, so pointing to a scenario that is more accurate but less well understood wouldn’t yield much. I have spoken with people who lived through the cultural revolution and what they said about then sounds an awful lot like what is happening now. If I hadn’t had experiences like this, I wouldn’t have this opinion- but my personal anecdote doesn’t scale. Most Americans don’t understand just how bonkers the thinking got during the cultural revolution. The “garden” in Seattle’s “CHOP” has almost direct parallels to the kind of thinking of the maoists. Btw- I didn’t pick the Nazi comparison, OP did. I don’t think it’s great, but there are parallels. Despite the weaknesses, I’d still argue that this is a defensible historical example. What would you offer as an alternative? I’ve not seen a single person in the BLM protests I would call inspiring. I see unchecked emotion and anger that regularly decays into raw hatred. There is no MLK in this movement- there are no leaders that offer a vision that everyone can believe in. Since BLM is an org with such “expertise” in what white people think, you would think they would cynically propose a soft spoken figurehead who says inspirational things. Instead, we get adversarial confrontation on the “fact” that all white people are racist and only white and white adjacent people can be racist. This is idiotic marketing strategy. You’d think they would avoid antagonizing their customer if they were serious about positive change. So if disruptive confrontation is the path to solving a cultural problem, brownshirt comparisons make a hell of a lot of sense.

scollet 6y ago
> Since BLM is an org with such “expertise” in what white people think, you would think they would cynically propose a soft spoken figurehead who says inspirational things. Instead, we get adversarial confrontation on the “fact” that all white people are racist and only white and white adjacent people can be racist. This is idiotic marketing strategy. You’d think they would avoid antagonizing their customer if they were serious about positive change. Wow. You really are a racist. Or at least an authoritarian on some level. You want people of color to convince you - a task of which is not theirs to fulfill - that they should have basic social rights in the US. You then refuse to be convinced because they aren't 'being nice' about it? How on earth is fighting for social and civil rights a task of political suppression? BLM represents a bloc that has been disincentivised from voting from the founding of America until 2020. Something screams authoritarian, and it certainly isn't protesting.
- DaniloDias 6y ago
  I don’t ask anything of any people of color. I am surprised you would use your privilege to assume I am not black.
leftyted 6y ago
I think comparisons to the civil rights movements of the past are valid and I agree that current movements compare unfavorably to the past ones. I'll just repeat that I think it's a significant mistake to make analogies to Nazis or Maoists.
- qqqwerty 6y ago
  MLK is being used disingenuously by the right[1]. He was treated very similar to BLM during his activism and his death was openly celebrated by some political figures on the right. BLM has very consciously decided to foster a leaderless movement to prevent the vilification tactics used by right wing media to discredit movements (see AOC, Hillary, Kaepernick, etc..)[2] [1] https://therecount.com/watch/revisionist-history-martin-luther-king-jr/2645862179 https://therecount.com/watch/revisionist-history-martin-luth... [2] https://www.politico.com/news/2020/07/22/black-lives-matter-movement-leader-377369 https://www.politico.com/news/2020/07/22/black-lives-matter-...