5 ms·

Taking the story at face value: Zen lied to customers and the community, hired a developer away from Zig, and that developer cannot work on Zig now due to an ND

by tl 6y ago

Taking the story at face value: Zen lied to customers and the community, hired a developer away from Zig, and that developer cannot work on Zig now due to an NDA. GPL violations are not unknown. Would Zen have really cared about breaking the license? Would legal mechanisms work fast enough to limit damage?

CyberRabbi 6y ago
All of that developers work on zen would be available to the zig foundation if it were licensed GPL. If it were licensed GPL and they were violating that license they could sue in the legal system instead of writing a blog post with dubious effect.
- dnautics 6y ago
  and where would the money and time to pursue a lawsuit come from?
  - CyberRabbi 6y ago
    From the Zig foundation
    - dnautics 6y ago
      that's laughable. How much do you suppose it would cost to hire an international lawyer to pursue a case in a foreign country. Even if there were enough resources, do you think that the stakeholders in the Zig Foundation would consider that to be a reasonable use of the funds that they've donated? I certainly wouldn't. As a donor, as far as I can tell, this is as good as they could do. I'm much happier that they spend their money on code, and leave it at a statement that can grab attention, like what they have done.
      - CyberRabbi 6y ago
        Roughly $100K-$200K maximum and it would be a good use of time if it would recover potentially millions for the foundation.
        nemothekid 6y ago
        >recover potentially millions for the foundation. You really believe a guy setting up a superficial fork in his basement has "millions" to pay out in damages?
        CyberRabbi 6y ago
        If he doesn’t then there is little point in writing this blog post as well.
        nemothekid 6y ago
        The point of the blogpost isn't to shutdown Zen, it's to ensure new people who find Zig or Zen aren't confused into thinking there is a relationship between the two.
        CyberRabbi 6y ago
        Why would anyone think there was a relationship between the two? Nothing in Zen’s marketing mentions Zig.
        nemothekid 6y ago
        I have more faith in my fellow human beings that when they do due diligence to decide whether they should pay a monthly fee to use a language, that they would do a little due diligence and look into the history and syntax of the language and see that it's a fork of Zig instead of taking marketing at face value.
        CyberRabbi 6y ago
  - mouldysammich 6y ago
    This is the purpose of the FSF as far as I understand. One of their goals is enforcement of the GPL
    - MaxBarraclough 6y ago
      I believe the FSF only use their legal resources to defend software whose copyright has been assigned to them. https://www.fsf.org/bulletin/2014/spring/copyright-assignment-at-the-fsf https://www.fsf.org/bulletin/2014/spring/copyright-assignmen...
- we2341 6y ago
  >All of that developers work on zen would be available to the zig foundation if it were licensed GPL. False. the changes and the license only need to be extended to Zen's customers. They don't need to be provided back to Zig. >If it were licensed GPL and they were violating that license they could sue in the legal system instead of writing a blog post with dubious effect. Suing isn't a good idea even if you have a case. The blog post does more with less effort. Even if Zig and Zen were GPL the employees agreement can be structured such that his work on Zen can not be used for Zig. There's an FAQ for this sort of stuff: https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.en.html#DevelopChangesUnderNDA https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.en.html#DevelopChangesU...
  - CyberRabbi 6y ago
    >>All of that developers work on zen would be available to the zig foundation if it were licensed GPL. >False. the changes and the license only need to be extended to Zen's customers. They don't need to be provided back to Zig. Zen makes their system available for free download to the public, thus would be forced to provide source to the public. https://zen-lang.org/ja-JP/download/ https://zen-lang.org/ja-JP/download/
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
  Has anyone ever perused legal action based on a GPL violation? Last I checked, even the biggest piece of GPL software in existence, the Linux kernel, gets its violated without legal repercussions.
  - monocasa 6y ago
    Yes, there have been several successful GPL violation lawsuits.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 6y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BusyBox#GPL_lawsuits https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BusyBox#GPL_lawsuits

by tl 6y ago

CyberRabbi 6y ago

All of that developers work on zen would be available to the zig foundation if it were licensed GPL. If it were licensed GPL and they were violating that license they could sue in the legal system instead of writing a blog post with dubious effect.

dnautics 6y ago
and where would the money and time to pursue a lawsuit come from?
- CyberRabbi 6y ago
  From the Zig foundation
  - dnautics 6y ago
    that's laughable. How much do you suppose it would cost to hire an international lawyer to pursue a case in a foreign country. Even if there were enough resources, do you think that the stakeholders in the Zig Foundation would consider that to be a reasonable use of the funds that they've donated? I certainly wouldn't. As a donor, as far as I can tell, this is as good as they could do. I'm much happier that they spend their money on code, and leave it at a statement that can grab attention, like what they have done.
    - CyberRabbi 6y ago
      Roughly $100K-$200K maximum and it would be a good use of time if it would recover potentially millions for the foundation.
      - nemothekid 6y ago
        >recover potentially millions for the foundation. You really believe a guy setting up a superficial fork in his basement has "millions" to pay out in damages?
        CyberRabbi 6y ago
        If he doesn’t then there is little point in writing this blog post as well.
        nemothekid 6y ago
        The point of the blogpost isn't to shutdown Zen, it's to ensure new people who find Zig or Zen aren't confused into thinking there is a relationship between the two.
        CyberRabbi 6y ago
        Why would anyone think there was a relationship between the two? Nothing in Zen’s marketing mentions Zig.
        nemothekid 6y ago
        I have more faith in my fellow human beings that when they do due diligence to decide whether they should pay a monthly fee to use a language, that they would do a little due diligence and look into the history and syntax of the language and see that it's a fork of Zig instead of taking marketing at face value.
        CyberRabbi 6y ago
- mouldysammich 6y ago
  This is the purpose of the FSF as far as I understand. One of their goals is enforcement of the GPL
  - MaxBarraclough 6y ago
    I believe the FSF only use their legal resources to defend software whose copyright has been assigned to them. https://www.fsf.org/bulletin/2014/spring/copyright-assignment-at-the-fsf https://www.fsf.org/bulletin/2014/spring/copyright-assignmen...
we2341 6y ago
>All of that developers work on zen would be available to the zig foundation if it were licensed GPL. False. the changes and the license only need to be extended to Zen's customers. They don't need to be provided back to Zig. >If it were licensed GPL and they were violating that license they could sue in the legal system instead of writing a blog post with dubious effect. Suing isn't a good idea even if you have a case. The blog post does more with less effort. Even if Zig and Zen were GPL the employees agreement can be structured such that his work on Zen can not be used for Zig. There's an FAQ for this sort of stuff: https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.en.html#DevelopChangesUnderNDA https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.en.html#DevelopChangesU...
- CyberRabbi 6y ago
  >>All of that developers work on zen would be available to the zig foundation if it were licensed GPL. >False. the changes and the license only need to be extended to Zen's customers. They don't need to be provided back to Zig. Zen makes their system available for free download to the public, thus would be forced to provide source to the public. https://zen-lang.org/ja-JP/download/ https://zen-lang.org/ja-JP/download/
AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
Has anyone ever perused legal action based on a GPL violation? Last I checked, even the biggest piece of GPL software in existence, the Linux kernel, gets its violated without legal repercussions.
- monocasa 6y ago
  Yes, there have been several successful GPL violation lawsuits.
- yjftsjthsd-h 6y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BusyBox#GPL_lawsuits https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BusyBox#GPL_lawsuits