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>> Free software isn’t really free, it requires a team of software developers to maintain the self hosted servers that it’s running on Free (libre) software is

>> Free software isn’t really free, it requires a team of software developers to maintain the self hosted servers that it’s running on Free (libre) software isn't necessarily free (gratis) either. Stallman isn't against people being compensated for providing a service, he's against licenses and business models that restrict what you're allowed to do with stuff, especially after you've paid for it. And paid software doesn't really eliminate the need for trained (non-gratis) administration personnel and additional management infrastructure either. As usual I think the absolute of what Stallman's saying here isn't very pragmatic, but the way many schools depend entirely on massive Microsoft contracts isn't really pragmatic either. My school paid a huge amount of money for these huge accounts with Microsoft. And I saw a lot of students leave school with a heavy dependence on Microsoft. I on the other hand, also completed virtually all of my assignments on a tiny Linux netbook using OpenOffice / LibreOffice that cost me a fraction of what everyone else was using. And even as someone who loves the idea of running `git clone` for software I use to make little tweaks? I never once in 4 years found a reason to do that for OpenOffice or LibreOffice. Are those Microsoft contracts really worth it for places that have limited funding and a charter to provide education for the broadest good? I'd absolutely agree there's cases where it's better for the school to simply purchase something quick that solves their problem. I wouldn't have a problem with that. But most of the arguments I hear against even considering the alternatives just sound like resistance to change for the sake of it.

rimliu 6y ago
There is another point hidden there. You can use free software in schools just fine. What happens when kids leave the schools? They will face MS Office or Google Docs. Maybe the idea there is that those kids then push to replace those with Libre Office, but that's a pipe dream. So they will have to learn those non-free products. And given that only minority learn the concepts not what exactly which button to push, there will be a lot of unhappy people in the offices.
- TallGuyShort 6y ago
  >> So they will have to learn those non-free products. And given that only minority learn the concepts not what exactly which button to push, there will be a lot of unhappy people in the offices. If your standard for educational institutions is to learn how to push specific buttons and be unable to learn new software, then they will be failing miserably. And not just because, as you point out in your comment, not every company uses the same office suite. By your standard, using MS Office is already a pragmatic failure for students who go somewhere where they use Google Docs.
  - rimliu 6y ago
    No, it is not my standart for education institutions. And (I hope) it is not a standard to teach. Alas, it is standard thing for people to learn. And, sadly enough, thi applies in all the areas. Concepts are hard, let's go shopping. I see it all the time in somewhat techincal hobbies: not many care about what's happening at the concept level, they just want a button to push and get the result. If that button is moved, there is a trouble.
    - TallGuyShort 6y ago
      Your arguments apply to all office suites. Not free ones. I'm not sure what you're trying to suggest schools should do here.
- boomboomsubban 6y ago
  The reason everything outside of school uses those products is that the workforce is trained to use them.
  - rimliu 6y ago
    Yes. Ant there is a thing called inertia. Feel free to fight it.
    - TallGuyShort 6y ago
      Yeah see my previous comment, "But most of the arguments I hear against even considering the alternatives just sound like resistance to change for the sake of it." Poor arguments. If a lot of businesses start using Google Docs, shouldn't schools abandon Office?
judge2020 6y ago
> that cost me a fraction of what everyone else was using Nowadays even MS Office is free for everyone in the Office 365 org, so kids today won't pay until they leave their school and need a home license (and that's if they don't work somewhere that uses Office 365 as well, allowing them to install it on their home machine).
- boogies 6y ago
  > on a tiny Linux netbook using OpenOffice / LibreOffice that cost me a fraction of what everyone else was using (emphasis added) I read it as referring to the hardware. Linux runs inside many SD cards and can run on a ~$3 business card (as well as running on most supercomputers, stock exchanges, the ISS, SpaceX rockets and many cars, etc.)
  - TallGuyShort 6y ago
    I meant it to refer to both. I had a lot of peers who were using recent MacBooks and would often buy software for their projects. I know many of them used Microsoft Office on their macs too - but whether they could get that free of charge at the time is unknown to me.

rimliu 6y ago

There is another point hidden there. You can use free software in schools just fine. What happens when kids leave the schools? They will face MS Office or Google Docs. Maybe the idea there is that those kids then push to replace those with Libre Office, but that's a pipe dream. So they will have to learn those non-free products. And given that only minority learn the concepts not what exactly which button to push, there will be a lot of unhappy people in the offices.

TallGuyShort 6y ago
>> So they will have to learn those non-free products. And given that only minority learn the concepts not what exactly which button to push, there will be a lot of unhappy people in the offices. If your standard for educational institutions is to learn how to push specific buttons and be unable to learn new software, then they will be failing miserably. And not just because, as you point out in your comment, not every company uses the same office suite. By your standard, using MS Office is already a pragmatic failure for students who go somewhere where they use Google Docs.
- rimliu 6y ago
  No, it is not my standart for education institutions. And (I hope) it is not a standard to teach. Alas, it is standard thing for people to learn. And, sadly enough, thi applies in all the areas. Concepts are hard, let's go shopping. I see it all the time in somewhat techincal hobbies: not many care about what's happening at the concept level, they just want a button to push and get the result. If that button is moved, there is a trouble.
  - TallGuyShort 6y ago
    Your arguments apply to all office suites. Not free ones. I'm not sure what you're trying to suggest schools should do here.
boomboomsubban 6y ago
The reason everything outside of school uses those products is that the workforce is trained to use them.
- rimliu 6y ago
  Yes. Ant there is a thing called inertia. Feel free to fight it.
  - TallGuyShort 6y ago
    Yeah see my previous comment, "But most of the arguments I hear against even considering the alternatives just sound like resistance to change for the sake of it." Poor arguments. If a lot of businesses start using Google Docs, shouldn't schools abandon Office?

judge2020 6y ago

> that cost me a fraction of what everyone else was using Nowadays even MS Office is free for everyone in the Office 365 org, so kids today won't pay until they leave their school and need a home license (and that's if they don't work somewhere that uses Office 365 as well, allowing them to install it on their home machine).

boogies 6y ago
> on a tiny Linux netbook using OpenOffice / LibreOffice that cost me a fraction of what everyone else was using (emphasis added) I read it as referring to the hardware. Linux runs inside many SD cards and can run on a ~$3 business card (as well as running on most supercomputers, stock exchanges, the ISS, SpaceX rockets and many cars, etc.)
- TallGuyShort 6y ago
  I meant it to refer to both. I had a lot of peers who were using recent MacBooks and would often buy software for their projects. I know many of them used Microsoft Office on their macs too - but whether they could get that free of charge at the time is unknown to me.