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To play the devil’s advocate - I reckon it’s all to do with support. If something breaks they can just pick up the phone and tell them to sort it out. What will

To play the devil’s advocate - I reckon it’s all to do with support. If something breaks they can just pick up the phone and tell them to sort it out. What will they do when a random open source program breaks? Open a github issue? I’m also sure deals like that come with other goodies, for example, my university offered free, licensed windows, office & visual studio installations. Also, electronics course had windows-only software that we all had to use. I’m sure it’s not that easy to switch. There must be deals on deals upon deals depending on where the school budget comes from and who approves it and so on.

rimliu 6y ago
This point is lost on stallmanists. They still live with assumption that every user is a programmer or at least very interested in _controlling_ the software. No. Majority just want to use the software for whatever they need it to. Writers just want to write books, digital artists just want to paint, etc.
- fsflover 6y ago
  You can call me a "stallmanist" if you like, but this point has been explained many times in the essays of Stallman. In short: No one has to be a programmer. Free software allows you to hire anyone to work on your software, just like with car repairs.
  - rimliu 6y ago
    And I can just call the vendor without looking for someone on github. I am a bit bitter here, because I grew up in make-believe idealogically driven society (USSR), so things reminding me that give me the mental allergy.
    - fsflover 6y ago
      The difference is monopoly versus free market of programmers.
      - EricE 6y ago
        Overabundance of choice is not always a positive, however. However awful they may be, at least with a proprietary software vendor I have one throat to choke. I don’t have to try to track down someone who can help me. Theoretically I can always find the programmer to help me fix my problem with an open source application - practically the odds of me being able to actually do so are not on my side; hence the continued flourishment of proprietary software. If the open source community would spend more time on solving issues like these that are brought up instead of insulting people who tell them why they don’t use open source software, more people might actually use open source software.
        pessimizer 6y ago
        Maybe choose the support at the same time you choose the software then, instead of waiting for something to break i.e. exactly the same thing you do with proprietary software, except you can fire them. > If the open source community would spend more time on solving issues like these that are brought up instead of insulting people who tell them why they don’t use open source software, more people might actually use open source software. If you've ever asked this question before, you've probably gotten this answer before. The insults come from being frustrated that the answers are ignored, and the questions repeated.
        EricE 6y ago
        Rather than insult, how about just remaining silent, then? And as for finding support ahead of time - how? With some projects it's clear, but with many it's not. Because it's not a priority. Newbs are still looked down on. Nevermind that everyone was a newb at one time.
        cycloptic 6y ago
        >And as for finding support ahead of time - how? Find community members who know what they're doing and offer some money up front? I've noticed the RTFM attitude goes away pretty quickly with that.
  - H_Pylori 6y ago
    > Free software allows you to hire anyone to work on your software, just like with car repairs. But almost nobody does. People have voted with their wallets. Why do you think that is? To me the answer is simple: most users don't care about "freedom" as defined by Stallman. People just want to use software, they only care about price, features and ease of use. Availability of source code is not a concern for 99%+ of users. And if people don't care about "freedom", but only care about price, features and ease of use, proprietary software wins hands down over free software.
jacobwilliamroy 6y ago
In the words of neil stephenson: "If your tank breaks down, we'll send engineers to your house to fix it for you while you sleep!" Proprietary software support is a lie. Arlo is so incompetent, they can't even bill me. Seriously. I go to buy something in their app, and it gives me an error. I file a support ticket, say I have money and I want to buy something. Tell multiple people via web and phone that I want to buy something but the interface is broken. It's been about a month now. I just checked. It's still broken. They really dont give a shit their billing system is broken. These people are clowns.
michaelt 6y ago
> I reckon it’s all to do with support. If something breaks they can just pick up the phone and tell them to sort it out. You must have a very different experience with getting support for proprietary software than I do. You can spend four- and five-figures per seat per year on CAD software, and still only get canned responses suggesting you uninstall and reinstall. You can license Google Docs for 2000 employees, doesn't mean you can get a single easily reproducible bug fixed.
- dfxm12 6y ago
  If you don't buy support for software, you're the support team. Maybe that's something a savvy teacher is willing to take on for a small, advanced class where the students largely know what they're doing, or at least have a reasonable baseline of prior education. It certainly doesn't scale when we're talking school wide software, tiny IT teams and dozens of thousands of students & and hundreds of faculty of varying levels of computer literacy all bringing their own devices. I guess it depends on if you have a strong enough IT team to provide that support or not. I doubt many schools, or even large corporations do.
  - murgindrag 6y ago
    The #1 platform in schools is Google. Google doesn't provide support either. Or to be specific, there is a support email with obnoxious, egoistic minimum wage drones who make Comcast look great. There are all sorts of broken self-serve automated systems too. Empowered employees capable of understanding what they're talking about? They do their best to shield them from customers. Google stuff mostly works. When it doesn't, you're mostly SOL. It's like that even if you pay for the fancy enterprise stuff. Microsoft has support. They're also nowhere close to being the #1 platform in schools. Apple has support. Ditto.
TYPE_FASTER 6y ago
My goal would be to provide open source educational software with paid support and hosted options at an affordable price point. From what I've seen recently, the school district and board really work hard towards providing the best educational product at the lowest cost. For example, switching hardware from a Windows laptop to a Chromebook meant we saved money on both the hardware contracts and support. But justifying $20k+ for the cost of a software license for a HR module in the educational equivalent of PeopleSoft is harder, even when the district has projected that we will save more than the cost of the software in the long run.
bregma 6y ago
If you don't pay for support, you will get what you paid for. This is orthogonal to whether the software is Free or non-Free. If you've ever heard of Red Hat, they were a Free software support organization that became an international success story with a multi-billion-dollar valuation. They are not the only ones out there. In short, what they'd do if there's a problem is pick up the phone to whoever is contracted to provide support service, and expect support.

rimliu 6y ago

This point is lost on stallmanists. They still live with assumption that every user is a programmer or at least very interested in _controlling_ the software. No. Majority just want to use the software for whatever they need it to. Writers just want to write books, digital artists just want to paint, etc.

fsflover 6y ago
You can call me a "stallmanist" if you like, but this point has been explained many times in the essays of Stallman. In short: No one has to be a programmer. Free software allows you to hire anyone to work on your software, just like with car repairs.
- rimliu 6y ago
  And I can just call the vendor without looking for someone on github. I am a bit bitter here, because I grew up in make-believe idealogically driven society (USSR), so things reminding me that give me the mental allergy.
  - fsflover 6y ago
    The difference is monopoly versus free market of programmers.
    - EricE 6y ago
      Overabundance of choice is not always a positive, however. However awful they may be, at least with a proprietary software vendor I have one throat to choke. I don’t have to try to track down someone who can help me. Theoretically I can always find the programmer to help me fix my problem with an open source application - practically the odds of me being able to actually do so are not on my side; hence the continued flourishment of proprietary software. If the open source community would spend more time on solving issues like these that are brought up instead of insulting people who tell them why they don’t use open source software, more people might actually use open source software.
      - pessimizer 6y ago
        Maybe choose the support at the same time you choose the software then, instead of waiting for something to break i.e. exactly the same thing you do with proprietary software, except you can fire them. > If the open source community would spend more time on solving issues like these that are brought up instead of insulting people who tell them why they don’t use open source software, more people might actually use open source software. If you've ever asked this question before, you've probably gotten this answer before. The insults come from being frustrated that the answers are ignored, and the questions repeated.
        EricE 6y ago
        Rather than insult, how about just remaining silent, then? And as for finding support ahead of time - how? With some projects it's clear, but with many it's not. Because it's not a priority. Newbs are still looked down on. Nevermind that everyone was a newb at one time.
        cycloptic 6y ago
        >And as for finding support ahead of time - how? Find community members who know what they're doing and offer some money up front? I've noticed the RTFM attitude goes away pretty quickly with that.
- H_Pylori 6y ago
  > Free software allows you to hire anyone to work on your software, just like with car repairs. But almost nobody does. People have voted with their wallets. Why do you think that is? To me the answer is simple: most users don't care about "freedom" as defined by Stallman. People just want to use software, they only care about price, features and ease of use. Availability of source code is not a concern for 99%+ of users. And if people don't care about "freedom", but only care about price, features and ease of use, proprietary software wins hands down over free software.

jacobwilliamroy 6y ago

In the words of neil stephenson: "If your tank breaks down, we'll send engineers to your house to fix it for you while you sleep!" Proprietary software support is a lie. Arlo is so incompetent, they can't even bill me. Seriously. I go to buy something in their app, and it gives me an error. I file a support ticket, say I have money and I want to buy something. Tell multiple people via web and phone that I want to buy something but the interface is broken. It's been about a month now. I just checked. It's still broken. They really dont give a shit their billing system is broken. These people are clowns.

michaelt 6y ago

> I reckon it’s all to do with support. If something breaks they can just pick up the phone and tell them to sort it out. You must have a very different experience with getting support for proprietary software than I do. You can spend four- and five-figures per seat per year on CAD software, and still only get canned responses suggesting you uninstall and reinstall. You can license Google Docs for 2000 employees, doesn't mean you can get a single easily reproducible bug fixed.

dfxm12 6y ago
If you don't buy support for software, you're the support team. Maybe that's something a savvy teacher is willing to take on for a small, advanced class where the students largely know what they're doing, or at least have a reasonable baseline of prior education. It certainly doesn't scale when we're talking school wide software, tiny IT teams and dozens of thousands of students & and hundreds of faculty of varying levels of computer literacy all bringing their own devices. I guess it depends on if you have a strong enough IT team to provide that support or not. I doubt many schools, or even large corporations do.
- murgindrag 6y ago
  The #1 platform in schools is Google. Google doesn't provide support either. Or to be specific, there is a support email with obnoxious, egoistic minimum wage drones who make Comcast look great. There are all sorts of broken self-serve automated systems too. Empowered employees capable of understanding what they're talking about? They do their best to shield them from customers. Google stuff mostly works. When it doesn't, you're mostly SOL. It's like that even if you pay for the fancy enterprise stuff. Microsoft has support. They're also nowhere close to being the #1 platform in schools. Apple has support. Ditto.

TYPE_FASTER 6y ago

My goal would be to provide open source educational software with paid support and hosted options at an affordable price point. From what I've seen recently, the school district and board really work hard towards providing the best educational product at the lowest cost. For example, switching hardware from a Windows laptop to a Chromebook meant we saved money on both the hardware contracts and support. But justifying $20k+ for the cost of a software license for a HR module in the educational equivalent of PeopleSoft is harder, even when the district has projected that we will save more than the cost of the software in the long run.

bregma 6y ago

If you don't pay for support, you will get what you paid for. This is orthogonal to whether the software is Free or non-Free. If you've ever heard of Red Hat, they were a Free software support organization that became an international success story with a multi-billion-dollar valuation. They are not the only ones out there. In short, what they'd do if there's a problem is pick up the phone to whoever is contracted to provide support service, and expect support.