5 ms·

The problem is the quality of life expectations are quite high when you pay $3000 for 1 bedroom. While air quality/electricity concerns may only last a few wee

by rsj_hn 6y ago

The problem is the quality of life expectations are quite high when you pay $3000 for 1 bedroom. While air quality/electricity concerns may only last a few weeks per year, and maybe covid is just 6 months (but 1 year is more likely) you then have a city overrun with homeless, walk outside your apartment to see someone sleeping on your stoop, accidentally step on human feces regularly, the BART escalators and most of Market Street stinks of urine, cars are broken into, people are regularly walking into stores, grabbing stuff, and running away with the cashiers screaming at them. Then you look at your friends in the rest of the country that have already bought a house, and the consolation that you may only be able to rent but it's in a great city -- it starts to wear a bit thin.

baybal2 6y ago
Working remotely in an SF based company is the job offer imaginable if you also get SF salaries, but without having to live there.
- throwaway1777 6y ago
  Even if you land that it may not last. Salary cuts are also a trend. Enjoy it while you can.
e40 6y ago
The problem is the quality of life expectations are quite high when you pay $3000 for 1 bedroom. Relative to what you make, is that a lot, compared to what you'd make/pay in Kansas City? Do you realize that the AQI is terrible for literally a third of the US right now? If climate change is going to ruin CA, then it will also ruin a LOT of other places. Relatively speaking, the Bay Area will be nicer still, albeit much more expensive, than other places.
- itake 6y ago
  Idk about your job but my job would is willing to pay me a bonus to leave SF and will only cut my salary by 10%. Definitely seems worth it to me. Especially factoring in not needing to pay cali income or sales tax. The bay areas has never been nice in the last 5 years. I can live in a more comfortable house where I don’t have to work 3ft from where I sleep in almost any other city.
  - moonka 6y ago
    >job would is willing to pay me a bonus to leave SF and will only cut my salary by 10%. How many years worth of a cut salary would the bonus be? I might be missing something (if you are factoring the tax differences I get it).
    - setr 6y ago
      You should also be factoring in the cost of living difference to really figure out if there's a real loss
    - pbourke 6y ago
      > How many years worth of a cut salary would the bonus be? Who gives a shit? You’re still making good money. What’s your life worth?
      - moonka 6y ago
        Taking this comment on good faith, I'm just asking for my own edification. I've lived in Seattle, downtown adjacent, for 10+ years, and really love it, even with COVID, outside of the few weeks where we've had bad smoke. Obviously if half the year is going to be like this, I'm leaving regardless of the salary ramifications, but if we are talking a week or so every couple years, it might be a different story. I moved to Seattle to escape other problematic issues where I used to live, and I suspect the same is true for lots of folks.
        bradlys 6y ago
        I can’t imagine why you moved to Seattle to escape “problematic issues” with where you lived before. Were you in Phoenix before...? Seattle isn’t exactly a place that lacks problems. I left in 2014 and as far as I can tell, it has only gotten worse with its issues.
        moonka 6y ago
        I was in New Mexico.
- rsj_hn 6y ago
  > Relative to what you make, is that a lot, compared to what you'd make/pay in Kansas City? With remote work, it's not even close. I'd take COLA pay cut and still have more after taxes. But even ignoring remote work, let's compare two cities: San Francisco and Salt Lake City. Median HH Income in SF: 108K (source: https://www.deptofnumbers.com/income/california/san-francisco/ https://www.deptofnumbers.com/income/california/san-francisc...) Median House Price in SF: 1.4 Million (source: https://www.zillow.com/san-francisco-ca/home-values/ https://www.zillow.com/san-francisco-ca/home-values/) SF Price to Income ratio: 13 Median HH Income Salt Lake City: 74K (source: https://www.deptofnumbers.com/income/utah/salt-lake-city/ https://www.deptofnumbers.com/income/utah/salt-lake-city/) Median House Price: 420K (source: https://www.zillow.com/salt-lake-city-ut/home-values/ https://www.zillow.com/salt-lake-city-ut/home-values/) Salt Lake City Price to Income ratio: 5.7 Of course SLC has worse average AQI than a coastal city like SF. If you are inland and have a large population, you will have worse particulates. So let's look at coastal cities all of which have air quality as good or better than SF and have the bonus of warm water so you can swim at the beach: Jacksonville, FL: median HH income: 47K median house price: 196K Price to Income: 4.2 Charleston, SC: median household income: 64K median house price: 337K median price to income: 5.3 Wilmington, NC: median household income: 53K median house price: 300K price to income: 5.7 Do you see a pattern? And none of these cities have streets filled with feces and homeless encampments, a 16% state income tax with high income surcharge, or refuse to prosecute property crime.
  - vsef 6y ago
    Where are you getting 16% state income tax from? In your median income example of 108k, the top rate for single filer is 9.3%, but that payers effective rate is only 6.6% (summed over all bracket). This is not much higher than Utah's flat 4.95% Even a single filer making $500k/year will only hit a top rate of 11.3%, and effective rate of 9.4%. For surcharges to kick in requires > $1M/year, and only affects the amount over that.
    - bradlys 6y ago
      Probably including the sales tax or something in the figure. Isn’t California one of the worst states in the country for tax burden? I do find it weird that CA has some of the worst taxes for new residents. I can’t imagine a place that is more difficult to break into and then settle in. (High property values, outrageously high property taxes, high sales tax, high income tax, etc...) It’s setup to only let the rich get in and stay. Not a very inclusive place.
shuckles 6y ago
A one bedroom apartment is perhaps the most unfavorable comparison (the housing stock is predominantly SFHs, so bedrooms in a shared home are a lot more plentiful than one bedrooms, which are usually in apartments), yet I see multiple listings for $2,200/mo in Redwood City, a fairly central part of the Bay. You don’t have to live in San Francisco, FYI, and even still your particularly dystopian portrait seems off the mark from my lived experience. And your COVID point makes no sense: the Bay Area has come out relatively better off in the pandemic than most other places. A similar apartment in Austin would be around $1,300/mo. Is $10,000/yr really the difference between middling and “quite high” expectations for quality of life? How do you price access to a far more competitive market for your labor? Is it the state taxes, then, which push you over the edge?
- bradlys 6y ago
  You’re not getting a nice place for $2200/month in RWC compared to what that $1300/month would get you in Austin or whereever. For that amount, you’re next to the tracks and living in the ghetto in an uninsulated shitbox.
jjav 6y ago
> Then you look at your friends in the rest of the country But you don't need to go to the rest of the country, just step outside San Francisco city limits. Everything described in the second paragraph is pretty unique to San Francisco. Not something you really see in Silicon Valley proper.

by rsj_hn 6y ago

baybal2 6y ago

Working remotely in an SF based company is the job offer imaginable if you also get SF salaries, but without having to live there.

throwaway1777 6y ago
Even if you land that it may not last. Salary cuts are also a trend. Enjoy it while you can.

e40 6y ago

The problem is the quality of life expectations are quite high when you pay $3000 for 1 bedroom. Relative to what you make, is that a lot, compared to what you'd make/pay in Kansas City? Do you realize that the AQI is terrible for literally a third of the US right now? If climate change is going to ruin CA, then it will also ruin a LOT of other places. Relatively speaking, the Bay Area will be nicer still, albeit much more expensive, than other places.

itake 6y ago
Idk about your job but my job would is willing to pay me a bonus to leave SF and will only cut my salary by 10%. Definitely seems worth it to me. Especially factoring in not needing to pay cali income or sales tax. The bay areas has never been nice in the last 5 years. I can live in a more comfortable house where I don’t have to work 3ft from where I sleep in almost any other city.
- moonka 6y ago
  >job would is willing to pay me a bonus to leave SF and will only cut my salary by 10%. How many years worth of a cut salary would the bonus be? I might be missing something (if you are factoring the tax differences I get it).
  - setr 6y ago
    You should also be factoring in the cost of living difference to really figure out if there's a real loss
  - pbourke 6y ago
    > How many years worth of a cut salary would the bonus be? Who gives a shit? You’re still making good money. What’s your life worth?
    - moonka 6y ago
      Taking this comment on good faith, I'm just asking for my own edification. I've lived in Seattle, downtown adjacent, for 10+ years, and really love it, even with COVID, outside of the few weeks where we've had bad smoke. Obviously if half the year is going to be like this, I'm leaving regardless of the salary ramifications, but if we are talking a week or so every couple years, it might be a different story. I moved to Seattle to escape other problematic issues where I used to live, and I suspect the same is true for lots of folks.
      - bradlys 6y ago
        I can’t imagine why you moved to Seattle to escape “problematic issues” with where you lived before. Were you in Phoenix before...? Seattle isn’t exactly a place that lacks problems. I left in 2014 and as far as I can tell, it has only gotten worse with its issues.
        moonka 6y ago
        I was in New Mexico.
rsj_hn 6y ago
> Relative to what you make, is that a lot, compared to what you'd make/pay in Kansas City? With remote work, it's not even close. I'd take COLA pay cut and still have more after taxes. But even ignoring remote work, let's compare two cities: San Francisco and Salt Lake City. Median HH Income in SF: 108K (source: https://www.deptofnumbers.com/income/california/san-francisco/ https://www.deptofnumbers.com/income/california/san-francisc...) Median House Price in SF: 1.4 Million (source: https://www.zillow.com/san-francisco-ca/home-values/ https://www.zillow.com/san-francisco-ca/home-values/) SF Price to Income ratio: 13 Median HH Income Salt Lake City: 74K (source: https://www.deptofnumbers.com/income/utah/salt-lake-city/ https://www.deptofnumbers.com/income/utah/salt-lake-city/) Median House Price: 420K (source: https://www.zillow.com/salt-lake-city-ut/home-values/ https://www.zillow.com/salt-lake-city-ut/home-values/) Salt Lake City Price to Income ratio: 5.7 Of course SLC has worse average AQI than a coastal city like SF. If you are inland and have a large population, you will have worse particulates. So let's look at coastal cities all of which have air quality as good or better than SF and have the bonus of warm water so you can swim at the beach: Jacksonville, FL: median HH income: 47K median house price: 196K Price to Income: 4.2 Charleston, SC: median household income: 64K median house price: 337K median price to income: 5.3 Wilmington, NC: median household income: 53K median house price: 300K price to income: 5.7 Do you see a pattern? And none of these cities have streets filled with feces and homeless encampments, a 16% state income tax with high income surcharge, or refuse to prosecute property crime.
- vsef 6y ago
  Where are you getting 16% state income tax from? In your median income example of 108k, the top rate for single filer is 9.3%, but that payers effective rate is only 6.6% (summed over all bracket). This is not much higher than Utah's flat 4.95% Even a single filer making $500k/year will only hit a top rate of 11.3%, and effective rate of 9.4%. For surcharges to kick in requires > $1M/year, and only affects the amount over that.
  - bradlys 6y ago
    Probably including the sales tax or something in the figure. Isn’t California one of the worst states in the country for tax burden? I do find it weird that CA has some of the worst taxes for new residents. I can’t imagine a place that is more difficult to break into and then settle in. (High property values, outrageously high property taxes, high sales tax, high income tax, etc...) It’s setup to only let the rich get in and stay. Not a very inclusive place.

shuckles 6y ago

A one bedroom apartment is perhaps the most unfavorable comparison (the housing stock is predominantly SFHs, so bedrooms in a shared home are a lot more plentiful than one bedrooms, which are usually in apartments), yet I see multiple listings for $2,200/mo in Redwood City, a fairly central part of the Bay. You don’t have to live in San Francisco, FYI, and even still your particularly dystopian portrait seems off the mark from my lived experience. And your COVID point makes no sense: the Bay Area has come out relatively better off in the pandemic than most other places. A similar apartment in Austin would be around $1,300/mo. Is $10,000/yr really the difference between middling and “quite high” expectations for quality of life? How do you price access to a far more competitive market for your labor? Is it the state taxes, then, which push you over the edge?

bradlys 6y ago
You’re not getting a nice place for $2200/month in RWC compared to what that $1300/month would get you in Austin or whereever. For that amount, you’re next to the tracks and living in the ghetto in an uninsulated shitbox.

jjav 6y ago

> Then you look at your friends in the rest of the country But you don't need to go to the rest of the country, just step outside San Francisco city limits. Everything described in the second paragraph is pretty unique to San Francisco. Not something you really see in Silicon Valley proper.