4 ms·

I followed the apprenticeship model in one field, but was entirely autodidactic when it came to tech as there is so much material/content online to teach yourse

I followed the apprenticeship model in one field, but was entirely autodidactic when it came to tech as there is so much material/content online to teach yourself if you're motivated and inclined and would prefer it remained as such. I mainly pursued one technology only to find that I had to learn so much more as I went deeper and it eventually snow-balled into starting my own fintech startup and then as a bootstrapping founder working professionally to fund the former. This was only possible because there was so much freedom within our community and free content available. With apprenticeships you're really at the mercy of the Master who will instill in you their 'version' of how something must be done, whether you agree with it or them is entirely irrelevant to the process of edification and leaves very little room for creative problem solving and rule breaking that I think the most important work in tech actually requires. This rigid structure is well suited for certain crafts (like electricians or plumbing) and perhaps some arts (culinary, masonry/architecture), but I fear the power that FAANG already has exerted in corrupting an entire generation of tech workers with salary and supposed prestige has done enough damage already to the World, so to have them act as gatekeepers of information seems entirely myopic and self-serving to an already entrenched Industry.

trishankkarthik 6y ago
100% Tech companies could hire and train students straight from high school instead of making them go through the academic priestly class, but nope, everyone wants expensive degrees and pay more for it.
- red_admiral 6y ago
  If Google did that, then Google would also be to blame for the resulting demographics not meeting everyone's standards for equality. It's really useful to be able to outsource some of the filtering process.
  - MagnumOpus 6y ago
    Agreed. Any company that can pay six figure salaries for graduate wants to be able to choose a combination of outstanding smarts and grit. Getting into an Ivy League CS program demonstrates that - and any demographic issues are provably due to the pipeline. Exchanging that filter for hiring straight out of school but only taking, say, people with top 5% of SAT results (1420) would also demonstrate it, but it would result in even more stark over-representation of Asians (about 20% of them meet the cutoff) and under-representation of Blacks (only 1% of them meet the cutoff).
  - ignoramous 6y ago
    Not exactly replacing college education, but this is something: https://grow.google/certificates/ https://grow.google/certificates/
indigochill 6y ago
Perhaps somewhat ironically, we're already kind of there in some respect. What's the dominant front-end Javascript framework? React. Made by Facebook. Presumably with Facebook's assumptions about how front-end Javascript should work baked in (not that I'm complaining, really - I like React) Or Protobuf, Google's idea of how data serialization should work (again, I like Protobuf). Go, too. Before this you also had things like C# by Microsoft and Java by Oracle (and a whole slew of languages from Apple). Each one trying to impose their vision for software on developers who would use their language. You even see this in LISP, where devotees may look for ways to use other languages in a LISP-like way. We may not have formal apprenticeships, but we definitely pick up patterns of thinking about software from the tools we use to make our software.
groby_b 6y ago
> With apprenticeships you're really at the mercy of the Master who will instill in you their 'version' of how something must be done, That is not necessarily true. The German apprenticeship model (which covers a ton of jobs there, not just artistic & blue collar) has a school component, and a shared test at the end of apprenticeship and journeymanship. This ensures a common standard on "how things are done", and a shared toolkit for anybody working in the field.
- Melting_Harps 6y ago
  > The German apprenticeship mode Incidentally enough, I did my 1st year of apprenticeship (Biodynamische - Landwirtschaft) in Germany alongside University students who are mandated to do one semester of a sort of work study. I began as a person with a BSc in Biology and several years in the diagnostics Industry. But I was taught under a guy who went through that system you described instead of going through real-schule and he bounced around the system, often misguided, as to what to do because of the aforementioned statement. I personally decided to continue in other countries in Europe with a stronger culinary history after my first year, but I still think the German/Swiss model is a superior way to teach young adults practical skills in relevant Industries without the need for the debt traps that Universities have become.
  - groby_b 6y ago
    Well, tbf, German universities aren't exactly a debt trap either. ($300 enrollment/semester, includes health insurance, and usually a bus ticket)

trishankkarthik 6y ago

100% Tech companies could hire and train students straight from high school instead of making them go through the academic priestly class, but nope, everyone wants expensive degrees and pay more for it.

red_admiral 6y ago
If Google did that, then Google would also be to blame for the resulting demographics not meeting everyone's standards for equality. It's really useful to be able to outsource some of the filtering process.
- MagnumOpus 6y ago
  Agreed. Any company that can pay six figure salaries for graduate wants to be able to choose a combination of outstanding smarts and grit. Getting into an Ivy League CS program demonstrates that - and any demographic issues are provably due to the pipeline. Exchanging that filter for hiring straight out of school but only taking, say, people with top 5% of SAT results (1420) would also demonstrate it, but it would result in even more stark over-representation of Asians (about 20% of them meet the cutoff) and under-representation of Blacks (only 1% of them meet the cutoff).
- ignoramous 6y ago
  Not exactly replacing college education, but this is something: https://grow.google/certificates/ https://grow.google/certificates/

indigochill 6y ago

Perhaps somewhat ironically, we're already kind of there in some respect. What's the dominant front-end Javascript framework? React. Made by Facebook. Presumably with Facebook's assumptions about how front-end Javascript should work baked in (not that I'm complaining, really - I like React) Or Protobuf, Google's idea of how data serialization should work (again, I like Protobuf). Go, too. Before this you also had things like C# by Microsoft and Java by Oracle (and a whole slew of languages from Apple). Each one trying to impose their vision for software on developers who would use their language. You even see this in LISP, where devotees may look for ways to use other languages in a LISP-like way. We may not have formal apprenticeships, but we definitely pick up patterns of thinking about software from the tools we use to make our software.

groby_b 6y ago

> With apprenticeships you're really at the mercy of the Master who will instill in you their 'version' of how something must be done, That is not necessarily true. The German apprenticeship model (which covers a ton of jobs there, not just artistic & blue collar) has a school component, and a shared test at the end of apprenticeship and journeymanship. This ensures a common standard on "how things are done", and a shared toolkit for anybody working in the field.

Melting_Harps 6y ago
> The German apprenticeship mode Incidentally enough, I did my 1st year of apprenticeship (Biodynamische - Landwirtschaft) in Germany alongside University students who are mandated to do one semester of a sort of work study. I began as a person with a BSc in Biology and several years in the diagnostics Industry. But I was taught under a guy who went through that system you described instead of going through real-schule and he bounced around the system, often misguided, as to what to do because of the aforementioned statement. I personally decided to continue in other countries in Europe with a stronger culinary history after my first year, but I still think the German/Swiss model is a superior way to teach young adults practical skills in relevant Industries without the need for the debt traps that Universities have become.
- groby_b 6y ago
  Well, tbf, German universities aren't exactly a debt trap either. ($300 enrollment/semester, includes health insurance, and usually a bus ticket)