5 ms·

It will have the same effect the DMCA did on piracy after Napster. That's what will happen. Even if the big companies come clean and start policing, that will j

It will have the same effect the DMCA did on piracy after Napster. That's what will happen. Even if the big companies come clean and start policing, that will just move the extremists who have already built their army into decentralized encrypted chat platforms, and they will still recruit over these tools too. You've gotta basically build the entire Internet from scratch, with some kind of government and some kind of identification system so that if someone comes to take down social discourse they are removed from not just one platform but all of them and they can't come back without some kind of appeal. In addition, all political discourse held should be required to adhere to scientific and scholarly standards. I have no problem with people who aren't from institutions to challenge the status quo, sometimes that has benefits but if they aren't armed with a pile of evidence to prove why the status quo is wrong, they should not be amplified and that regulation should be central. Until you have both of these things, anything else you do will be a waste of time. It will either become like some sort of Vegan alt-lifestyle or morph into yet a new set of big platforms. Both are untenable, as fixing this has to require the participation of the entire social system.

messo 6y ago
The movie does not argue for policing content, but directs criticism towards massive data gathering, analysis and micro-persuasion trough algorithms.
- knobcore 6y ago
  Well that's what I'm arguing. I think algorithms have less power than people think they do, even the computer scientists. Social sciences/economic theories that study how crowds work all say that it's driven by information. You don't need an algorithm to do this you just need someone in your group to share that information with you, and this is actually is what really is happening when you look at it and get out of data and charts. People are leaving these algorithm ran places in droves especially now because they already believe that the government is working with these companies to track their movements and radical plans. They're already going to decentralized networks, and once that happens you will not be able to control the radicals just like you couldn't control the pirates after they switched to decentralized piracy networks. This isn't trying to stop someone downloading a couple Metallica songs. This is trying to stop the proliferation of fascist/totalitarian thought and foreign actors stoking it up. It's much more dire, and the world of John Perry Barlow is dead. Not to mention the last few right wing terrorist attacks weren't planned on Facebook or were they radicalized through there. Neither was QAnon. That all came from 4chan/8chan/etc. There are no algorithms there, no AI, and anyone could basically code something on that level of complexity in a day. Information should not be free. It should have limits. Once such information threatens the proliferation of a free society and brings people back towards totalitarianism the slippery slope "first they take away the press and then we get Hitler" argument falls flat on it's face because large swaths of the population freely gravitating towards Hitler gets you the exact same effect, and not only that the nuance between society trying to regulate information for the general health of said society and a fascist dictator doing the same is completely different.
  - messo 6y ago
    > I think algorithms have less power than people think they do, even the computer scientists. Algorithms are powerful because they can cause tiny, incremental and often completely unnoticeable changes of opinions and perception. These changes adds up when they affect large enough populations. I agree that people who gather in groups and share information makes up the bulk of this equation – algorithms do not operate in a vacuum. I do think that the negative effects caused by algorithms are largely unintended consequences. Profit is the motive, not malice. > People are leaving these algorithm ran places in droves especially now because they already believe that the government is working with these companies to track their movements and radical plans. A tiny fraction of the technically literate people escape the big platforms, the rest stays on even though they are somewhat conscious of the negative effects and ruthless business practices. > That all came from 4chan/8chan/etc. There are no algorithms there, no AI, and anyone could basically code something on that level of complexity in a day. Many people joining extreme communities have been nudged by algorithms, especially Youtube's. What happens from there is usually just plain old group think and tribalism, feeling the comfort of finding a community to belong to. The point is that those nudges from suggested videos gently pushes you down a rabbit hole you otherwise would not be exploring in such a rapid and captivating manner. Like they say in the film; algorithms are not evil on their own, they just tend to enable and amplify some of the worst tendencies in people who know how to exploit this tool for their own gain, political or otherwise. > Information should not be free. It should have limits. I disagree. What I do think is that the many "information outlets" should be held responsible for their editorialization. Newspapers, TV and social media platforms do all editorialize, only social media has left this task to the algorithms – which is rather careless and naive. These companies have indeed moved fast and are now braking things.
    - knobcore 6y ago
      > Algorithms are powerful because they can cause tiny, incremental and often completely unnoticeable changes of opinions and perception. Stafford Beer predicted in 1972 that increasing variety without regulatory variety to combat said variety would send society towards catastrophic collapse because there are so many possible states in the social system it becomes as complex as things like weather and wave formation. https://archive.org/details/DesigningFreedom https://archive.org/details/DesigningFreedom But we got the American Skinner Box model, mixed with heavy doses of hipsterism instead. > A tiny fraction of the technically literate people escape the big platforms I suggest you look into it a bit more and read about the associations between people like Nick Land, Milo Yiannopoulos, Steve Bannon, etc. While it's true some of it was done by social media, the thing about it is that conservative media has and always been this close knit juggernaut hype machine since when Rush Limbaugh appeared in the depths of AM Radio hell. To them, it's merely a faster way of organizing the way they have for years because there isn't any cost. They no longer have to print 5000 copies of something. It's low hanging fruit. Most of the alt-right are ex Ron Paulers, that were already into things like bitcoin through the libertarian party since like 2012. They never "escaped the big platforms", they were always recruitment points for normies, which doesn't even require them to do anything but promote mainstream conservatism then say "go here for more stuff" that can't be tracked by Facebook's AI. Maybe your grandma may not have "escaped" but your grandma probably isn't on the streets shooting black people or lefties. Bitcoin was transacted between these Russian/American groups according to the Mueller report also. > Many people joining extreme communities have been nudged by algorithms, especially Youtube's. What happens from there is usually just plain old group think and tribalism, feeling the comfort of finding a community to belong to. The algorithms merely bayesian filter a giant database of what people like and feed it back to them for their increased engagement. These people would have chosen such content on their own, and the fact the content exists in the first place that plays to their real views (not views they show in public) that have existed for hundreds if not thousands of years and are passed through blood lines (if your mom is a dem or rep or kkk, you're gonna be a dem or rep or kkk 80% of the time) it legitimizes the worst of human behavior which was socially unacceptable. But algorithms don't do that, communication without moderation does. You aren't going to get a Trump supporter to start watching CNN or MSNBC, and if the satellite stopped carrying it they would cancel their subscription and go somewhere else. So if the Internet offers media that has their views, they will seek it out and if the algorithms amplify this by sharing what other people in their social circles say, even better according to them. Saying that these people were innocent and normal before Facebook came along and made them radicals is just flat out wrong. They can just say the n word to each other with millions of people instead of having to hide it among close friends like they're smoking weed or something. This polarization was happening long before Facebook and the Internet even existed, especially during the Clinton administration and the things that got Tim McVeigh to bomb Oklahoma City over Ruby Ridge, Branch Davidians, and the Assault Weapons ban. That's who these people are, always will be, and giving them a communication platform without strong information control is asking for trouble. You aren't going to get away from business interests, religious interests, or racial interests it's basically impossible. You just need to create a sense of civil society via the web through ejecting bad actors from the public square. I know if I walked into a gay bar and started yelling homophobic slurs I probably wouldn't make it out of there alive, and if so I'd be kicked out for life with a nice bouncer at the door to greet me if I tried again. The Internet has no such protections.

messo 6y ago

The movie does not argue for policing content, but directs criticism towards massive data gathering, analysis and micro-persuasion trough algorithms.

knobcore 6y ago
Well that's what I'm arguing. I think algorithms have less power than people think they do, even the computer scientists. Social sciences/economic theories that study how crowds work all say that it's driven by information. You don't need an algorithm to do this you just need someone in your group to share that information with you, and this is actually is what really is happening when you look at it and get out of data and charts. People are leaving these algorithm ran places in droves especially now because they already believe that the government is working with these companies to track their movements and radical plans. They're already going to decentralized networks, and once that happens you will not be able to control the radicals just like you couldn't control the pirates after they switched to decentralized piracy networks. This isn't trying to stop someone downloading a couple Metallica songs. This is trying to stop the proliferation of fascist/totalitarian thought and foreign actors stoking it up. It's much more dire, and the world of John Perry Barlow is dead. Not to mention the last few right wing terrorist attacks weren't planned on Facebook or were they radicalized through there. Neither was QAnon. That all came from 4chan/8chan/etc. There are no algorithms there, no AI, and anyone could basically code something on that level of complexity in a day. Information should not be free. It should have limits. Once such information threatens the proliferation of a free society and brings people back towards totalitarianism the slippery slope "first they take away the press and then we get Hitler" argument falls flat on it's face because large swaths of the population freely gravitating towards Hitler gets you the exact same effect, and not only that the nuance between society trying to regulate information for the general health of said society and a fascist dictator doing the same is completely different.
- messo 6y ago
  > I think algorithms have less power than people think they do, even the computer scientists. Algorithms are powerful because they can cause tiny, incremental and often completely unnoticeable changes of opinions and perception. These changes adds up when they affect large enough populations. I agree that people who gather in groups and share information makes up the bulk of this equation – algorithms do not operate in a vacuum. I do think that the negative effects caused by algorithms are largely unintended consequences. Profit is the motive, not malice. > People are leaving these algorithm ran places in droves especially now because they already believe that the government is working with these companies to track their movements and radical plans. A tiny fraction of the technically literate people escape the big platforms, the rest stays on even though they are somewhat conscious of the negative effects and ruthless business practices. > That all came from 4chan/8chan/etc. There are no algorithms there, no AI, and anyone could basically code something on that level of complexity in a day. Many people joining extreme communities have been nudged by algorithms, especially Youtube's. What happens from there is usually just plain old group think and tribalism, feeling the comfort of finding a community to belong to. The point is that those nudges from suggested videos gently pushes you down a rabbit hole you otherwise would not be exploring in such a rapid and captivating manner. Like they say in the film; algorithms are not evil on their own, they just tend to enable and amplify some of the worst tendencies in people who know how to exploit this tool for their own gain, political or otherwise. > Information should not be free. It should have limits. I disagree. What I do think is that the many "information outlets" should be held responsible for their editorialization. Newspapers, TV and social media platforms do all editorialize, only social media has left this task to the algorithms – which is rather careless and naive. These companies have indeed moved fast and are now braking things.
  - knobcore 6y ago
    > Algorithms are powerful because they can cause tiny, incremental and often completely unnoticeable changes of opinions and perception. Stafford Beer predicted in 1972 that increasing variety without regulatory variety to combat said variety would send society towards catastrophic collapse because there are so many possible states in the social system it becomes as complex as things like weather and wave formation. https://archive.org/details/DesigningFreedom https://archive.org/details/DesigningFreedom But we got the American Skinner Box model, mixed with heavy doses of hipsterism instead. > A tiny fraction of the technically literate people escape the big platforms I suggest you look into it a bit more and read about the associations between people like Nick Land, Milo Yiannopoulos, Steve Bannon, etc. While it's true some of it was done by social media, the thing about it is that conservative media has and always been this close knit juggernaut hype machine since when Rush Limbaugh appeared in the depths of AM Radio hell. To them, it's merely a faster way of organizing the way they have for years because there isn't any cost. They no longer have to print 5000 copies of something. It's low hanging fruit. Most of the alt-right are ex Ron Paulers, that were already into things like bitcoin through the libertarian party since like 2012. They never "escaped the big platforms", they were always recruitment points for normies, which doesn't even require them to do anything but promote mainstream conservatism then say "go here for more stuff" that can't be tracked by Facebook's AI. Maybe your grandma may not have "escaped" but your grandma probably isn't on the streets shooting black people or lefties. Bitcoin was transacted between these Russian/American groups according to the Mueller report also. > Many people joining extreme communities have been nudged by algorithms, especially Youtube's. What happens from there is usually just plain old group think and tribalism, feeling the comfort of finding a community to belong to. The algorithms merely bayesian filter a giant database of what people like and feed it back to them for their increased engagement. These people would have chosen such content on their own, and the fact the content exists in the first place that plays to their real views (not views they show in public) that have existed for hundreds if not thousands of years and are passed through blood lines (if your mom is a dem or rep or kkk, you're gonna be a dem or rep or kkk 80% of the time) it legitimizes the worst of human behavior which was socially unacceptable. But algorithms don't do that, communication without moderation does. You aren't going to get a Trump supporter to start watching CNN or MSNBC, and if the satellite stopped carrying it they would cancel their subscription and go somewhere else. So if the Internet offers media that has their views, they will seek it out and if the algorithms amplify this by sharing what other people in their social circles say, even better according to them. Saying that these people were innocent and normal before Facebook came along and made them radicals is just flat out wrong. They can just say the n word to each other with millions of people instead of having to hide it among close friends like they're smoking weed or something. This polarization was happening long before Facebook and the Internet even existed, especially during the Clinton administration and the things that got Tim McVeigh to bomb Oklahoma City over Ruby Ridge, Branch Davidians, and the Assault Weapons ban. That's who these people are, always will be, and giving them a communication platform without strong information control is asking for trouble. You aren't going to get away from business interests, religious interests, or racial interests it's basically impossible. You just need to create a sense of civil society via the web through ejecting bad actors from the public square. I know if I walked into a gay bar and started yelling homophobic slurs I probably wouldn't make it out of there alive, and if so I'd be kicked out for life with a nice bouncer at the door to greet me if I tried again. The Internet has no such protections.