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“ It also falls apart on the slightest inspection!” Does it though? You are failing to provide an adequate argument for death. I see it as more than just a phy

“ It also falls apart on the slightest inspection!” Does it though? You are failing to provide an adequate argument for death. I see it as more than just a physical revulsion of dying or a fear of letting go. A western perversion or as a crisis of individualism. Those are present, to be sure, (I don’t agree with the western part but let’s go with that too) but is dreaming for immortality immature? Immortality is the very essence of maturity, it’s purest expression. But, is immaturity also so bad, like let’s be adult here and like fall into an abyss without struggling? To be certain, I am not blind to the charms of being courageous in the face of death. But this isn’t what I’m driving at. It’s not just fear of death, it’s also a collective refusal to live exponentially better than we do today. So many of our problems as a species stem from a joint agreement that life is inherently bad when life really is, maybe this is just me talking here, everything we could ever have in this place. And could we also dare to improve? Quickly forgotten is a bit of a stretch when I often think of my grandparents. But your thinking on this notion of poor memory as a, what now? Good reason to die? Much of what you say seems to depend on this idea that we should die because we are selfish anyways so good riddance. If blind selfishness is a prime cause of our ills than wouldn’t our slow rate of progress be a result of that? It’s not like blind selfishness is directly causing immortality. You mention western culture which begs the question: are you culturally opposed to extreme life extension? “Psychedelic re-education” I’m not a actually serious. The bottom of the rabbit hole is just more rabbit hole. LSD can inspire but it’s not an end goal.

pphysch 6y ago
If we assume that our particular individual human consciousness is the only form of consciousness, then many of your positions follow logically. However, life and behavioral sciences show that this is a weak assumption. Humans operate in predictable ways, as do other forms of life. And "humans" are in fact merely a collection of trillions of individual cells with individual needs and capabilities. And so on. If we break free of individual and anthropocentric notions of life and consciousness, we can reexamine what it means to be "immortal". For example, as a species we are virtually immortal from the perspective of a single human lifetime. Reproduction can be viewed as a endosomatic technology for endless life; doubly so for sexual reproduction. I posit that the endless vertical scaling of human consciousness is a dead end. Just as we are the product of billions of years of evolution and increasing organisation of life forms, we have reached a point at which horizontal scaling of human consciousness--to larger and more intimately connected social organisms--is extremely promising, and the proof is staring us in the face (the explosive success of collectivist China over the last 4 decades). Exosomatic "information technology" is the primary catalyst of this evolution. The potential for humanity and terrestrial life is truly staggering if we give ourselves permission to think outside the box of individualism.
acituan 6y ago
> but is dreaming for immortality immature? Immortality is the very essence of maturity, it’s purest expression Assumption of immortality is pretty much the epitome of childish narcissism, coming from a lack of having contextualized oneself in the real world, wanting to be everything, never making a choice, never making sacrifices to matter for others and future generations. It is literally encoded in the stories like Peter Pan, the infinite child, Puer Aeternus. Humans have lifespans past reproductive age mostly because there is a survival advantage to elders sticking around and helping raising new generations with their wisdom (memetic transfer). Advanced medicine only protracts that a little bit, but we have no evidence that individuals staying alive much longer is beneficial to the survival of species nor meaningful for the individuals. I am not saying that because survival of species is an absolute normativity, but just in order to live as individuals, we also need to survive as species, a type of calculation many of us fail at when it comes to problems like covid or climate change. > You are failing to provide an adequate argument for death. Death is the norm. I think the burden is on the immortalist to make an argument why they should live forever. How is their existence justified beyond prolonging their consumptive egocentrism a little longer? What is their value to humanity and themselves? If they are in competition for the same resources with the young ones, who should win? I think this is precisely the pathology of our times; narcissistic children of narcissistic parents can't let go of their meaning-lacking existences, because they are terrified of death, because their narcissism prevented them from placing themselves in a meaningful life that mattered for more than just themselves. This is a tragedy and not necessarily their fault, but they know that they will stop mattering the moment they stop consuming (death), so few, if anyone, will remember them or what they did beyond one generation.
- kinghtown 6y ago
  “ because there is a survival advantage to elders sticking around and helping raising new generations with their wisdom (memetic transfer). ” “I think the burden is on the immortalist to make an argument why they should live (longer) “ I would like to tie these two strings together here because there is a natural precedent for old age. You said it yourself, the previous generation can instruct the new one. We could extend the period of doing serious lifelong work. Engage in more pleasure and leisure as well as personal development and research. You seem to hang on this notion that people are merely consumers, especially those who want to live longer, so they must die. A tortoise can live for 200 years. Why not yourself? You approach this in utilitarian terms and I still ask so what? People want more pleasure? Why not? I won’t deny that I have a hedonistic streak in me but I’ve yet to see a convincing argument against hedonism which doesn’t take an extreme view of it. Your vocabulary set suggest an appreciation and maybe even training in science but the feeling is puritanical and punitive. I don’t share your misgivings and the burden of proof is not on the immoralist because there are no gods to judge us. Life extension would be our own decision to make. To deny it for your reasons infantilizes humanity, judging us as incapable of agency in our own lives. You would in fact render people as short lived consumers who are unable to chose. Peter Pan is on you after all. You want the natural order to crystallize as it is now, an eternal infancy of the human race as short lived by choice. I don’t demand for you to be remembered nor do I expect you to earn your keep for eternity. I want everyone to live the life they want for as long as they want. Life extension is a part of that.

pphysch 6y ago

If we assume that our particular individual human consciousness is the only form of consciousness, then many of your positions follow logically. However, life and behavioral sciences show that this is a weak assumption. Humans operate in predictable ways, as do other forms of life. And "humans" are in fact merely a collection of trillions of individual cells with individual needs and capabilities. And so on. If we break free of individual and anthropocentric notions of life and consciousness, we can reexamine what it means to be "immortal". For example, as a species we are virtually immortal from the perspective of a single human lifetime. Reproduction can be viewed as a endosomatic technology for endless life; doubly so for sexual reproduction. I posit that the endless vertical scaling of human consciousness is a dead end. Just as we are the product of billions of years of evolution and increasing organisation of life forms, we have reached a point at which horizontal scaling of human consciousness--to larger and more intimately connected social organisms--is extremely promising, and the proof is staring us in the face (the explosive success of collectivist China over the last 4 decades). Exosomatic "information technology" is the primary catalyst of this evolution. The potential for humanity and terrestrial life is truly staggering if we give ourselves permission to think outside the box of individualism.

acituan 6y ago

> but is dreaming for immortality immature? Immortality is the very essence of maturity, it’s purest expression Assumption of immortality is pretty much the epitome of childish narcissism, coming from a lack of having contextualized oneself in the real world, wanting to be everything, never making a choice, never making sacrifices to matter for others and future generations. It is literally encoded in the stories like Peter Pan, the infinite child, Puer Aeternus. Humans have lifespans past reproductive age mostly because there is a survival advantage to elders sticking around and helping raising new generations with their wisdom (memetic transfer). Advanced medicine only protracts that a little bit, but we have no evidence that individuals staying alive much longer is beneficial to the survival of species nor meaningful for the individuals. I am not saying that because survival of species is an absolute normativity, but just in order to live as individuals, we also need to survive as species, a type of calculation many of us fail at when it comes to problems like covid or climate change. > You are failing to provide an adequate argument for death. Death is the norm. I think the burden is on the immortalist to make an argument why they should live forever. How is their existence justified beyond prolonging their consumptive egocentrism a little longer? What is their value to humanity and themselves? If they are in competition for the same resources with the young ones, who should win? I think this is precisely the pathology of our times; narcissistic children of narcissistic parents can't let go of their meaning-lacking existences, because they are terrified of death, because their narcissism prevented them from placing themselves in a meaningful life that mattered for more than just themselves. This is a tragedy and not necessarily their fault, but they know that they will stop mattering the moment they stop consuming (death), so few, if anyone, will remember them or what they did beyond one generation.

kinghtown 6y ago
“ because there is a survival advantage to elders sticking around and helping raising new generations with their wisdom (memetic transfer). ” “I think the burden is on the immortalist to make an argument why they should live (longer) “ I would like to tie these two strings together here because there is a natural precedent for old age. You said it yourself, the previous generation can instruct the new one. We could extend the period of doing serious lifelong work. Engage in more pleasure and leisure as well as personal development and research. You seem to hang on this notion that people are merely consumers, especially those who want to live longer, so they must die. A tortoise can live for 200 years. Why not yourself? You approach this in utilitarian terms and I still ask so what? People want more pleasure? Why not? I won’t deny that I have a hedonistic streak in me but I’ve yet to see a convincing argument against hedonism which doesn’t take an extreme view of it. Your vocabulary set suggest an appreciation and maybe even training in science but the feeling is puritanical and punitive. I don’t share your misgivings and the burden of proof is not on the immoralist because there are no gods to judge us. Life extension would be our own decision to make. To deny it for your reasons infantilizes humanity, judging us as incapable of agency in our own lives. You would in fact render people as short lived consumers who are unable to chose. Peter Pan is on you after all. You want the natural order to crystallize as it is now, an eternal infancy of the human race as short lived by choice. I don’t demand for you to be remembered nor do I expect you to earn your keep for eternity. I want everyone to live the life they want for as long as they want. Life extension is a part of that.