8 ms·

To add to this comment(might be biased as I live and work in the UK): salaries here are just not on the USA level, while costs of items are the same, if not hig

by uzakov 6y ago

To add to this comment(might be biased as I live and work in the UK): salaries here are just not on the USA level, while costs of items are the same, if not higher(check Apple products price difference on the official website, clothing etc). For many of high demand engineers the choice is London/Manchester or move to the USA

ChuckNorris89 6y ago
LOL, that's rich, engineers in the UK feeling underpaid when you have the best market for SW engineers in Europe(London). Wanna see underpaid? Come to Austria.
- uzakov 6y ago
  I haven't been to Austria but numbeo seems to suggest what you say is incorrect on majority if not most of parameters https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Austria&city1=Vienna&country2=United+Kingdom&city2=London https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...
  - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
    Income levels wise, Numbeo is just a mish-mash full of noise and can't be taken seriously to judge salaries of skilled professionals(that's what we're talking about right?) Sure, poor people have it better in Vienna because it's cheaper and has better social services than London but skilled professionals(developers and engineers) have it worse as underpaying is rampant in the tech industry there. Sources: me living there and my friends living in the UK
    - uzakov 6y ago
      Do your friends on the similar level save more per month after all bills and taxes than you? Genuine question PS will they be saving more in the situation where both of you had promotions?
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      - uzakov 6y ago
        Since parent comment was deleted here is my answer anyway: I would say from personal experience, contractor earning 600 quid/day in London is more of an outlier than the norm, unless he is more like Principle level and working for FAANG type companies. Your answer answers a question similar to mine but not quite what I was asking. You take people A and B, person A lives in London, rents studio in the city centre, works as mid level engineer in a regular bank. Person B lives in Austria, rents studio in the city centre, works as mid level engineer in a regular banks. Who will have more money left after bills, food, taxes etc? Numbeo suggests that what you said is incorrect, as I pointed above but you might absolutely be right as well. "Compare that to the likes of Monzo and Austria is at least 15 years behind." Many Monzo features(for example instant notifications when card is used) are not present in many, if not majority of UK banks.
chrisseaton 6y ago
Like most tech people I know in the UK, I've worked for North American companies my whole career. I'd love to work for a UK company and support investment in the UK more, but the pay and working conditions just aren't even remotely competitive (how crazy does that sound, saying I have to go to North American companies to get better working conditions but it's true.) Thankfully more and more let you work remotely from the UK now. I might be misremembering and exaggerating but I think I looked at ARM internships a decade ago and they were paying about the same daily rate as the hourly rate I got from an American company. Guess where people went?
- ChuckNorris89 6y ago
  >how crazy does that sound, saying I have to go to North American companies to get better working conditions but it's true Same for my time in Germany. I got way better working conditions(not talking about money) working for US companies who had offices there than for German ones.
- reader_mode 6y ago
  > I'd love to work for a UK company and support investment in the UK more, but the pay and working conditions just aren't competitive (how crazy does that sound, saying I have to go to North American companies to get better working conditions but it's true.) Why is that crazy ? From what I've seen the standard of living in the US is actually really good if you're a skilled professional in a high demand field and the labor market is more competitive - better than the EU IMO. Which is why I'm not sure why I see so much US negative comments around here and this smug EU stance - like just recently I heard from two former coworkers that got a job at similar role/experience level one in Munich and one in Chicago - the guy that went to Chicago got 60% higher salary and his cost of living is roughly similar (didn't go in details TBH). Also on a personal and cultural level I prefer working with Americans - with Europeans there's so much posturing and pretending to be professional and formal (with skills usually lacking).
  - chrisseaton 6y ago
    > Why is that crazy ? Because people think the big benefit of being at a European company that balances the worse pay is more vacation, more reasonable working hours, better work-life balance, working autonomy. But that's not true. It's the opposite. I get far better vacation, working hours, work-life balance, working autonomy at North American companies. And better pay. So what's the benefit of working for a European company?
rapsey 6y ago
What about health care costs. Education costs. Amount of vacation time. Pension.
- bserge 6y ago
  That's the thing, for a high skilled position, the American salary will more than cover all of that.
- uzakov 6y ago
  Not sure if your comment is asking about those things or implying that what I said is incorrect. Healthcare costs: I personally do not have experience with USA healthcare system. In terms of UK healthcare system I have mixed feelings: key reasons(short list): 1) While it's free, getting many basic things(like blood, urine tests, ultrasound scan) is complicated if you have no symptoms. It's much cheaper and better for the health to treat things at the earliest stage possible and it's not always easy to do so in the UK, even with some private health insurance. 2) Relatively long waiting times for procedures, A&E[1] etc 3) Biased(and potentially selfish) reason: healthcare costs need to be looked both in terms of general population and personal level. If you are healthy and young your chances of using healthcare services are lower. Education: can't comment as haven't studied in the USA and people from outside of the UK(me) had to pay tuition fees in the UK Vacation(I might be wrong on this one): from my understanding speaking to some tech working from the USA, amount of days is only 5-10 days lower than than of the UK for many tech companies. Above does not mean UK is better or worse than USA, I love it here, I love British countryside,it is majestic! [1] https://www.nhs.uk/using-the-nhs/nhs-services/urgent-and-emergency-care/when-to-go-to-ae/#:~:text=The%20waiting%20time%20target%20for,wait%20until%20they're%20seen https://www.nhs.uk/using-the-nhs/nhs-services/urgent-and-eme.... [EDIT] First sentence replaced "what I wrong is incorrect" with "what I said is incorrect" and added some commas
  - pkaye 6y ago
    I was trying to search online to compare student debt in UK vs US. Any idea why the below link shows a high student debt in England? From https://www.statista.com/statistics/376423/uk-student-loan-debt/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/376423/uk-student-loan-d... > In 2020, students graduating from English universities will have incurred an average of 40.28 thousand British pounds of student loan debt... From https://studentloanhero.com/student-loan-debt-statistics/ https://studentloanhero.com/student-loan-debt-statistics/ > It’s 2020, and Americans are more burdened by student loan debt than ever. Among the Class of 2019, 69% of college students took out student loans, and they graduated with an average debt of $29,900, including both private and federal debt. Meanwhile, 14% of their parents took out an average of $37,200 in federal parent PLUS loans.
x87678r 6y ago
If you're a high demand engineer, you're probably right but SV is special. If you compare London to NY or Birmingham to Altlanta the gap isn't really there. Esp check taxes and healthcare in the US. I've worked both and I'm living in NY based on what I saved when I worked in London, money wise the USA has been surprisingly bad.
- TwiztidK 6y ago
  You sure? I just did a quick search for EE salaries in London[1] compared to Detroit[2] (the closest large city to me) and Detroit comes out ahead by a lot. And I'm sure rent is cheaper. However, I agree that salaries are ridiculous in some cities. I'd love to give living in NYC or LA a shot, but the salaries I see for EE jobs are marginally more than what I make in the middle of nowhere. 1: https://www.indeed.co.uk/salaries/senior-electrical-engineer-Salaries,-London-ENG https://www.indeed.co.uk/salaries/senior-electrical-engineer... 2: https://www.indeed.com/career/engineer/salaries/Detroit--MI https://www.indeed.com/career/engineer/salaries/Detroit--MI
  - uzakov 6y ago
    1) You are comparing London, the largest city and the capital of the UK, to Detroit, which is not the capital nor the largest city. 2) Check out numbeo https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/ https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/
    - TwiztidK 6y ago
      That was the point. Despite London being a much larger population center with much higher cost of living, engineers are still paid more in Detroit.
  - x87678r 6y ago
    You're right. Detroit is higher than I expected. I guess low GBP rates make a difference, when I was in London 1 GBP = 2 USD. (Rent in London is definitely not cheaper.) London isn't a great place for EE. Software in Banks had/has crazy demand.

by uzakov 6y ago

ChuckNorris89 6y ago

LOL, that's rich, engineers in the UK feeling underpaid when you have the best market for SW engineers in Europe(London). Wanna see underpaid? Come to Austria.

uzakov 6y ago
I haven't been to Austria but numbeo seems to suggest what you say is incorrect on majority if not most of parameters https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Austria&city1=Vienna&country2=United+Kingdom&city2=London https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...
- ChuckNorris89 6y ago
  Income levels wise, Numbeo is just a mish-mash full of noise and can't be taken seriously to judge salaries of skilled professionals(that's what we're talking about right?) Sure, poor people have it better in Vienna because it's cheaper and has better social services than London but skilled professionals(developers and engineers) have it worse as underpaying is rampant in the tech industry there. Sources: me living there and my friends living in the UK
  - uzakov 6y ago
    Do your friends on the similar level save more per month after all bills and taxes than you? Genuine question PS will they be saving more in the situation where both of you had promotions?
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - uzakov 6y ago
      Since parent comment was deleted here is my answer anyway: I would say from personal experience, contractor earning 600 quid/day in London is more of an outlier than the norm, unless he is more like Principle level and working for FAANG type companies. Your answer answers a question similar to mine but not quite what I was asking. You take people A and B, person A lives in London, rents studio in the city centre, works as mid level engineer in a regular bank. Person B lives in Austria, rents studio in the city centre, works as mid level engineer in a regular banks. Who will have more money left after bills, food, taxes etc? Numbeo suggests that what you said is incorrect, as I pointed above but you might absolutely be right as well. "Compare that to the likes of Monzo and Austria is at least 15 years behind." Many Monzo features(for example instant notifications when card is used) are not present in many, if not majority of UK banks.

chrisseaton 6y ago

Like most tech people I know in the UK, I've worked for North American companies my whole career. I'd love to work for a UK company and support investment in the UK more, but the pay and working conditions just aren't even remotely competitive (how crazy does that sound, saying I have to go to North American companies to get better working conditions but it's true.) Thankfully more and more let you work remotely from the UK now. I might be misremembering and exaggerating but I think I looked at ARM internships a decade ago and they were paying about the same daily rate as the hourly rate I got from an American company. Guess where people went?

ChuckNorris89 6y ago
>how crazy does that sound, saying I have to go to North American companies to get better working conditions but it's true Same for my time in Germany. I got way better working conditions(not talking about money) working for US companies who had offices there than for German ones.
reader_mode 6y ago
> I'd love to work for a UK company and support investment in the UK more, but the pay and working conditions just aren't competitive (how crazy does that sound, saying I have to go to North American companies to get better working conditions but it's true.) Why is that crazy ? From what I've seen the standard of living in the US is actually really good if you're a skilled professional in a high demand field and the labor market is more competitive - better than the EU IMO. Which is why I'm not sure why I see so much US negative comments around here and this smug EU stance - like just recently I heard from two former coworkers that got a job at similar role/experience level one in Munich and one in Chicago - the guy that went to Chicago got 60% higher salary and his cost of living is roughly similar (didn't go in details TBH). Also on a personal and cultural level I prefer working with Americans - with Europeans there's so much posturing and pretending to be professional and formal (with skills usually lacking).
- chrisseaton 6y ago
  > Why is that crazy ? Because people think the big benefit of being at a European company that balances the worse pay is more vacation, more reasonable working hours, better work-life balance, working autonomy. But that's not true. It's the opposite. I get far better vacation, working hours, work-life balance, working autonomy at North American companies. And better pay. So what's the benefit of working for a European company?

rapsey 6y ago

What about health care costs. Education costs. Amount of vacation time. Pension.

bserge 6y ago
That's the thing, for a high skilled position, the American salary will more than cover all of that.
uzakov 6y ago
Not sure if your comment is asking about those things or implying that what I said is incorrect. Healthcare costs: I personally do not have experience with USA healthcare system. In terms of UK healthcare system I have mixed feelings: key reasons(short list): 1) While it's free, getting many basic things(like blood, urine tests, ultrasound scan) is complicated if you have no symptoms. It's much cheaper and better for the health to treat things at the earliest stage possible and it's not always easy to do so in the UK, even with some private health insurance. 2) Relatively long waiting times for procedures, A&E[1] etc 3) Biased(and potentially selfish) reason: healthcare costs need to be looked both in terms of general population and personal level. If you are healthy and young your chances of using healthcare services are lower. Education: can't comment as haven't studied in the USA and people from outside of the UK(me) had to pay tuition fees in the UK Vacation(I might be wrong on this one): from my understanding speaking to some tech working from the USA, amount of days is only 5-10 days lower than than of the UK for many tech companies. Above does not mean UK is better or worse than USA, I love it here, I love British countryside,it is majestic! [1] https://www.nhs.uk/using-the-nhs/nhs-services/urgent-and-emergency-care/when-to-go-to-ae/#:~:text=The%20waiting%20time%20target%20for,wait%20until%20they're%20seen https://www.nhs.uk/using-the-nhs/nhs-services/urgent-and-eme.... [EDIT] First sentence replaced "what I wrong is incorrect" with "what I said is incorrect" and added some commas
- pkaye 6y ago
  I was trying to search online to compare student debt in UK vs US. Any idea why the below link shows a high student debt in England? From https://www.statista.com/statistics/376423/uk-student-loan-debt/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/376423/uk-student-loan-d... > In 2020, students graduating from English universities will have incurred an average of 40.28 thousand British pounds of student loan debt... From https://studentloanhero.com/student-loan-debt-statistics/ https://studentloanhero.com/student-loan-debt-statistics/ > It’s 2020, and Americans are more burdened by student loan debt than ever. Among the Class of 2019, 69% of college students took out student loans, and they graduated with an average debt of $29,900, including both private and federal debt. Meanwhile, 14% of their parents took out an average of $37,200 in federal parent PLUS loans.

x87678r 6y ago

If you're a high demand engineer, you're probably right but SV is special. If you compare London to NY or Birmingham to Altlanta the gap isn't really there. Esp check taxes and healthcare in the US. I've worked both and I'm living in NY based on what I saved when I worked in London, money wise the USA has been surprisingly bad.

TwiztidK 6y ago
You sure? I just did a quick search for EE salaries in London[1] compared to Detroit[2] (the closest large city to me) and Detroit comes out ahead by a lot. And I'm sure rent is cheaper. However, I agree that salaries are ridiculous in some cities. I'd love to give living in NYC or LA a shot, but the salaries I see for EE jobs are marginally more than what I make in the middle of nowhere. 1: https://www.indeed.co.uk/salaries/senior-electrical-engineer-Salaries,-London-ENG https://www.indeed.co.uk/salaries/senior-electrical-engineer... 2: https://www.indeed.com/career/engineer/salaries/Detroit--MI https://www.indeed.com/career/engineer/salaries/Detroit--MI
- uzakov 6y ago
  1) You are comparing London, the largest city and the capital of the UK, to Detroit, which is not the capital nor the largest city. 2) Check out numbeo https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/ https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/
  - TwiztidK 6y ago
    That was the point. Despite London being a much larger population center with much higher cost of living, engineers are still paid more in Detroit.
- x87678r 6y ago
  You're right. Detroit is higher than I expected. I guess low GBP rates make a difference, when I was in London 1 GBP = 2 USD. (Rent in London is definitely not cheaper.) London isn't a great place for EE. Software in Banks had/has crazy demand.