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Extreme, blind individualism is, in my opinion, the clearest root cause for many of our current problems. It's what drives our obsession with personal propriety

Extreme, blind individualism is, in my opinion, the clearest root cause for many of our current problems. It's what drives our obsession with personal propriety, economic growth, and immaterial fantasies of immortality (scientific and religious). It also falls apart on the slightest inspection! As you say, we all die and are quickly forgotten (ironically, we are forgotten first by those of our progeny who share our self-obsession). Unfortunately, it's also the core of Western culture. I think the idea of psychodelic-assisted reeducation is a promising and humane strategy if we want to avoid total social collapse in the West over the next 3 decades. But it's also extremely, extremely radical and deeply offensive to vague interpretation of "liberty". After all, why should someone tell me what to think or do, as I willingly earn $13/hr to barely make ends meet while consuming corporate media products in my rare leisure hours...

kinghtown 6y ago
“ It also falls apart on the slightest inspection!” Does it though? You are failing to provide an adequate argument for death. I see it as more than just a physical revulsion of dying or a fear of letting go. A western perversion or as a crisis of individualism. Those are present, to be sure, (I don’t agree with the western part but let’s go with that too) but is dreaming for immortality immature? Immortality is the very essence of maturity, it’s purest expression. But, is immaturity also so bad, like let’s be adult here and like fall into an abyss without struggling? To be certain, I am not blind to the charms of being courageous in the face of death. But this isn’t what I’m driving at. It’s not just fear of death, it’s also a collective refusal to live exponentially better than we do today. So many of our problems as a species stem from a joint agreement that life is inherently bad when life really is, maybe this is just me talking here, everything we could ever have in this place. And could we also dare to improve? Quickly forgotten is a bit of a stretch when I often think of my grandparents. But your thinking on this notion of poor memory as a, what now? Good reason to die? Much of what you say seems to depend on this idea that we should die because we are selfish anyways so good riddance. If blind selfishness is a prime cause of our ills than wouldn’t our slow rate of progress be a result of that? It’s not like blind selfishness is directly causing immortality. You mention western culture which begs the question: are you culturally opposed to extreme life extension? “Psychedelic re-education” I’m not a actually serious. The bottom of the rabbit hole is just more rabbit hole. LSD can inspire but it’s not an end goal.
- pphysch 6y ago
  If we assume that our particular individual human consciousness is the only form of consciousness, then many of your positions follow logically. However, life and behavioral sciences show that this is a weak assumption. Humans operate in predictable ways, as do other forms of life. And "humans" are in fact merely a collection of trillions of individual cells with individual needs and capabilities. And so on. If we break free of individual and anthropocentric notions of life and consciousness, we can reexamine what it means to be "immortal". For example, as a species we are virtually immortal from the perspective of a single human lifetime. Reproduction can be viewed as a endosomatic technology for endless life; doubly so for sexual reproduction. I posit that the endless vertical scaling of human consciousness is a dead end. Just as we are the product of billions of years of evolution and increasing organisation of life forms, we have reached a point at which horizontal scaling of human consciousness--to larger and more intimately connected social organisms--is extremely promising, and the proof is staring us in the face (the explosive success of collectivist China over the last 4 decades). Exosomatic "information technology" is the primary catalyst of this evolution. The potential for humanity and terrestrial life is truly staggering if we give ourselves permission to think outside the box of individualism.
- acituan 6y ago
  > but is dreaming for immortality immature? Immortality is the very essence of maturity, it’s purest expression Assumption of immortality is pretty much the epitome of childish narcissism, coming from a lack of having contextualized oneself in the real world, wanting to be everything, never making a choice, never making sacrifices to matter for others and future generations. It is literally encoded in the stories like Peter Pan, the infinite child, Puer Aeternus. Humans have lifespans past reproductive age mostly because there is a survival advantage to elders sticking around and helping raising new generations with their wisdom (memetic transfer). Advanced medicine only protracts that a little bit, but we have no evidence that individuals staying alive much longer is beneficial to the survival of species nor meaningful for the individuals. I am not saying that because survival of species is an absolute normativity, but just in order to live as individuals, we also need to survive as species, a type of calculation many of us fail at when it comes to problems like covid or climate change. > You are failing to provide an adequate argument for death. Death is the norm. I think the burden is on the immortalist to make an argument why they should live forever. How is their existence justified beyond prolonging their consumptive egocentrism a little longer? What is their value to humanity and themselves? If they are in competition for the same resources with the young ones, who should win? I think this is precisely the pathology of our times; narcissistic children of narcissistic parents can't let go of their meaning-lacking existences, because they are terrified of death, because their narcissism prevented them from placing themselves in a meaningful life that mattered for more than just themselves. This is a tragedy and not necessarily their fault, but they know that they will stop mattering the moment they stop consuming (death), so few, if anyone, will remember them or what they did beyond one generation.
Noos 6y ago
> I think the idea of psychodelic-assisted reeducation is a promising and humane strategy if we want to avoid total social collapse in the West over the next 3 decades ..when your idea to fix things as well as your dialogue is way too close for a Marvel supervillain's plot to control the world, you might want to rethink it.
- pphysch 6y ago
  Observe how you are using a Western children's fiction as if it constitutes an argument. Marvel superheroes/villains/narratives have very little connection to reality.

kinghtown 6y ago

“ It also falls apart on the slightest inspection!” Does it though? You are failing to provide an adequate argument for death. I see it as more than just a physical revulsion of dying or a fear of letting go. A western perversion or as a crisis of individualism. Those are present, to be sure, (I don’t agree with the western part but let’s go with that too) but is dreaming for immortality immature? Immortality is the very essence of maturity, it’s purest expression. But, is immaturity also so bad, like let’s be adult here and like fall into an abyss without struggling? To be certain, I am not blind to the charms of being courageous in the face of death. But this isn’t what I’m driving at. It’s not just fear of death, it’s also a collective refusal to live exponentially better than we do today. So many of our problems as a species stem from a joint agreement that life is inherently bad when life really is, maybe this is just me talking here, everything we could ever have in this place. And could we also dare to improve? Quickly forgotten is a bit of a stretch when I often think of my grandparents. But your thinking on this notion of poor memory as a, what now? Good reason to die? Much of what you say seems to depend on this idea that we should die because we are selfish anyways so good riddance. If blind selfishness is a prime cause of our ills than wouldn’t our slow rate of progress be a result of that? It’s not like blind selfishness is directly causing immortality. You mention western culture which begs the question: are you culturally opposed to extreme life extension? “Psychedelic re-education” I’m not a actually serious. The bottom of the rabbit hole is just more rabbit hole. LSD can inspire but it’s not an end goal.

pphysch 6y ago
If we assume that our particular individual human consciousness is the only form of consciousness, then many of your positions follow logically. However, life and behavioral sciences show that this is a weak assumption. Humans operate in predictable ways, as do other forms of life. And "humans" are in fact merely a collection of trillions of individual cells with individual needs and capabilities. And so on. If we break free of individual and anthropocentric notions of life and consciousness, we can reexamine what it means to be "immortal". For example, as a species we are virtually immortal from the perspective of a single human lifetime. Reproduction can be viewed as a endosomatic technology for endless life; doubly so for sexual reproduction. I posit that the endless vertical scaling of human consciousness is a dead end. Just as we are the product of billions of years of evolution and increasing organisation of life forms, we have reached a point at which horizontal scaling of human consciousness--to larger and more intimately connected social organisms--is extremely promising, and the proof is staring us in the face (the explosive success of collectivist China over the last 4 decades). Exosomatic "information technology" is the primary catalyst of this evolution. The potential for humanity and terrestrial life is truly staggering if we give ourselves permission to think outside the box of individualism.
acituan 6y ago
> but is dreaming for immortality immature? Immortality is the very essence of maturity, it’s purest expression Assumption of immortality is pretty much the epitome of childish narcissism, coming from a lack of having contextualized oneself in the real world, wanting to be everything, never making a choice, never making sacrifices to matter for others and future generations. It is literally encoded in the stories like Peter Pan, the infinite child, Puer Aeternus. Humans have lifespans past reproductive age mostly because there is a survival advantage to elders sticking around and helping raising new generations with their wisdom (memetic transfer). Advanced medicine only protracts that a little bit, but we have no evidence that individuals staying alive much longer is beneficial to the survival of species nor meaningful for the individuals. I am not saying that because survival of species is an absolute normativity, but just in order to live as individuals, we also need to survive as species, a type of calculation many of us fail at when it comes to problems like covid or climate change. > You are failing to provide an adequate argument for death. Death is the norm. I think the burden is on the immortalist to make an argument why they should live forever. How is their existence justified beyond prolonging their consumptive egocentrism a little longer? What is their value to humanity and themselves? If they are in competition for the same resources with the young ones, who should win? I think this is precisely the pathology of our times; narcissistic children of narcissistic parents can't let go of their meaning-lacking existences, because they are terrified of death, because their narcissism prevented them from placing themselves in a meaningful life that mattered for more than just themselves. This is a tragedy and not necessarily their fault, but they know that they will stop mattering the moment they stop consuming (death), so few, if anyone, will remember them or what they did beyond one generation.

Noos 6y ago

> I think the idea of psychodelic-assisted reeducation is a promising and humane strategy if we want to avoid total social collapse in the West over the next 3 decades ..when your idea to fix things as well as your dialogue is way too close for a Marvel supervillain's plot to control the world, you might want to rethink it.

pphysch 6y ago
Observe how you are using a Western children's fiction as if it constitutes an argument. Marvel superheroes/villains/narratives have very little connection to reality.