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"and may just fork off on the ARMv8.3 spec, adding a few instructions here or there" No, they may not. People keep suggesting these kinds of things, but part o

"and may just fork off on the ARMv8.3 spec, adding a few instructions here or there" No, they may not. People keep suggesting these kinds of things, but part of the license agreement is that you can't modify the ISA. Only ARM can do that.

my123 6y ago
That's untrue. (famously so, Intel used to ship arm chips with WMMX and Apple for example ships their CPU today with the AMX AI acceleration extension)
- Followerer 6y ago
  That's like saying that my Intel CPU comes with an NVIDA Turing AI acceleration extension. The instructions the CPU can run on an Apple ARM-based CPU is all ARM ISA. That's in the license arrangement, if you fail to pass ARM's compliance tests (which include not adding your own instructions, or modifying the ones included) you can't use ARM's license. Please, stop spreading nonsense. All of this is public knowledge.
  - my123 6y ago
    No. I reverse-engineered it and AMX on the Apple A13 is an instruction set extension running on the main CPU core. The Neural Engine is a completely separate hardware block, and you have good reasons to have such an extension available on the CPU directly, to reduce latency for short-running tasks.
    - Followerer 6y ago
      The AMX is an accelerator block... If you concluded otherwise, your reverse-engineering skills are not great... Let me repeat this: part of the ARM architectural license says that you can't modify the ISA. You have to implement a whole subset (the manual says what's mandatory and what's optional), and only that. This is, as I've been saying, public knowledge. This is how it works. And there are very good reasons for this, like avoiding fragmentation and losing control of their own ISA. And once again, stop spreading misinformation.
      - my123 6y ago
        Hello, Specifically about the Apple case, After your tone, not certainly obligated to answer but will write one quickly... Apple A13 adds AMX, a set of (mostly) AI acceleration instructions that are also useful for matrix math in general. The AMX configuration happens at the level of the AMX_CONFIG_EL1/EL12/EL2/EL21 registers, with AMX_STATE_T_EL1 and AMX_CONTEXT_EL1 being also present. The list of instructions is at https://pastebin.ubuntu.com/p/xZmmVF7tS8/ https://pastebin.ubuntu.com/p/xZmmVF7tS8/ (didn't bother to document it publicly at least at this point). Hopefully that clears things up a bit, And please don't ever do this again, thank you. (this also doesn't comply with the guidelines) -- a member of the checkra1n team
      - eklavya 6y ago
        You may be correct, but do you really have to be so attacking?
      - btian 6y ago
        Can you provide a link to the "public knowledge" for those who don't know?
    - rrss 6y ago
      Are the AMX instructions available in EL0? Is it possible AMX is implemented with the implementation-defined system registers and aliases of SYS/SYSL in the encoding space reserved for implementation-defined system instructions? Do you have the encodings for the AMX instructions?
      - my123 6y ago
        AMX instructions are available in EL0 yes, and are used by CoreML and Accelerate.framework. A sample instruction: 20 12 20 00... which doesn't in any stretch parse as a valid arm64 instruction in the Arm specification. Edit: Some other AMX combinations off-hand: 00 10 20 00 21 12 20 00 20 12 20 00 40 10 20 00
        rrss 6y ago
        very interesting, thanks!
- rrss 6y ago
  WMMX was exposed via the ARM coprocessor mechanism (so it was permitted by the architecture). The coprocessor stuff was removed in ARMv8.
  - my123 6y ago
    Now custom instructions are directly on the regular instruction space... (+ there's the can of worms of target-specific MSRs being writable from user-space, Apple does this as part of APRR to flip the JIT region from RW- to R-X and vice-versa without going through a trip to the kernel. That also has the advantage that the state is modifiable per-thread)
  - Followerer 6y ago
    In ARMv8 you have a much cleaner mechanism through system registers(MSR/MRS).
    - saagarjha 6y ago
      Apple has been using system registers for years already. AMX is interesting because it's actual instruction encodings that are unused by the spec.
kortex 6y ago
Well, regardless of whether this amendment is kosher or not, AMX definitely exists. Perhaps the $2T tech behemoth was able to work out a sweetheart deal with the $40B semiconductor company. > There’s been a lot of confusion as to what this means, as until now it hadn’t been widely known that Arm architecture licensees were allowed to extend their ISA with custom instructions. We weren’t able to get any confirmation from either Apple or Arm on the matter, but one thing that is clear is that Apple isn’t publicly exposing these new instructions to developers, and they’re not included in Apple’s public compilers. We do know, however, that Apple internally does have compilers available for it, and libraries such as the Acclerate.framework seem to be able to take advantage of AMX. [0] my123's instruction names leads to a very shallow rabbit hole on google, which turns up a similar list [1] Agreed upon: ['amxclr', 'amxextrx', 'amxextry', 'amxfma16', 'amxfma32', 'amxfma64', 'amxfms16', 'amxfms32', 'amxfms64', 'amxgenlut', 'amxldx', 'amxldy', 'amxldz', 'amxldzi', 'amxmac16', 'amxmatfp', 'amxmatint', 'amxset', 'amxstx', 'amxsty', 'amxstz', 'amxstzi', 'amxvecfp', 'amxvecint'] my123 also has ['amxextrh', 'amxextrv']. [0] https://www.anandtech.com/show/14892/the-apple-iphone-11-pro-and-max-review/2#twitter-widget-0:~:text=A%20big%20change%20to%20the%20CPU,%E2%80%9Cmachine%20learning%20accelerators%E2%80%9D%20into%20the%20microarchitecture https://www.anandtech.com/show/14892/the-apple-iphone-11-pro.... [1] https://www.realworldtech.com/forum/?threadid=187087&curpostid= https://www.realworldtech.com/forum/?threadid=187087&curpost...

my123 6y ago

That's untrue. (famously so, Intel used to ship arm chips with WMMX and Apple for example ships their CPU today with the AMX AI acceleration extension)

Followerer 6y ago
That's like saying that my Intel CPU comes with an NVIDA Turing AI acceleration extension. The instructions the CPU can run on an Apple ARM-based CPU is all ARM ISA. That's in the license arrangement, if you fail to pass ARM's compliance tests (which include not adding your own instructions, or modifying the ones included) you can't use ARM's license. Please, stop spreading nonsense. All of this is public knowledge.
- my123 6y ago
  No. I reverse-engineered it and AMX on the Apple A13 is an instruction set extension running on the main CPU core. The Neural Engine is a completely separate hardware block, and you have good reasons to have such an extension available on the CPU directly, to reduce latency for short-running tasks.
  - Followerer 6y ago
    The AMX is an accelerator block... If you concluded otherwise, your reverse-engineering skills are not great... Let me repeat this: part of the ARM architectural license says that you can't modify the ISA. You have to implement a whole subset (the manual says what's mandatory and what's optional), and only that. This is, as I've been saying, public knowledge. This is how it works. And there are very good reasons for this, like avoiding fragmentation and losing control of their own ISA. And once again, stop spreading misinformation.
    - my123 6y ago
      Hello, Specifically about the Apple case, After your tone, not certainly obligated to answer but will write one quickly... Apple A13 adds AMX, a set of (mostly) AI acceleration instructions that are also useful for matrix math in general. The AMX configuration happens at the level of the AMX_CONFIG_EL1/EL12/EL2/EL21 registers, with AMX_STATE_T_EL1 and AMX_CONTEXT_EL1 being also present. The list of instructions is at https://pastebin.ubuntu.com/p/xZmmVF7tS8/ https://pastebin.ubuntu.com/p/xZmmVF7tS8/ (didn't bother to document it publicly at least at this point). Hopefully that clears things up a bit, And please don't ever do this again, thank you. (this also doesn't comply with the guidelines) -- a member of the checkra1n team
    - eklavya 6y ago
      You may be correct, but do you really have to be so attacking?
    - btian 6y ago
      Can you provide a link to the "public knowledge" for those who don't know?
  - rrss 6y ago
    Are the AMX instructions available in EL0? Is it possible AMX is implemented with the implementation-defined system registers and aliases of SYS/SYSL in the encoding space reserved for implementation-defined system instructions? Do you have the encodings for the AMX instructions?
    - my123 6y ago
      AMX instructions are available in EL0 yes, and are used by CoreML and Accelerate.framework. A sample instruction: 20 12 20 00... which doesn't in any stretch parse as a valid arm64 instruction in the Arm specification. Edit: Some other AMX combinations off-hand: 00 10 20 00 21 12 20 00 20 12 20 00 40 10 20 00
      - rrss 6y ago
        very interesting, thanks!
rrss 6y ago
WMMX was exposed via the ARM coprocessor mechanism (so it was permitted by the architecture). The coprocessor stuff was removed in ARMv8.
- my123 6y ago
  Now custom instructions are directly on the regular instruction space... (+ there's the can of worms of target-specific MSRs being writable from user-space, Apple does this as part of APRR to flip the JIT region from RW- to R-X and vice-versa without going through a trip to the kernel. That also has the advantage that the state is modifiable per-thread)
- Followerer 6y ago
  In ARMv8 you have a much cleaner mechanism through system registers(MSR/MRS).
  - saagarjha 6y ago
    Apple has been using system registers for years already. AMX is interesting because it's actual instruction encodings that are unused by the spec.

kortex 6y ago

Well, regardless of whether this amendment is kosher or not, AMX definitely exists. Perhaps the $2T tech behemoth was able to work out a sweetheart deal with the $40B semiconductor company. > There’s been a lot of confusion as to what this means, as until now it hadn’t been widely known that Arm architecture licensees were allowed to extend their ISA with custom instructions. We weren’t able to get any confirmation from either Apple or Arm on the matter, but one thing that is clear is that Apple isn’t publicly exposing these new instructions to developers, and they’re not included in Apple’s public compilers. We do know, however, that Apple internally does have compilers available for it, and libraries such as the Acclerate.framework seem to be able to take advantage of AMX. [0] my123's instruction names leads to a very shallow rabbit hole on google, which turns up a similar list [1] Agreed upon: ['amxclr', 'amxextrx', 'amxextry', 'amxfma16', 'amxfma32', 'amxfma64', 'amxfms16', 'amxfms32', 'amxfms64', 'amxgenlut', 'amxldx', 'amxldy', 'amxldz', 'amxldzi', 'amxmac16', 'amxmatfp', 'amxmatint', 'amxset', 'amxstx', 'amxsty', 'amxstz', 'amxstzi', 'amxvecfp', 'amxvecint'] my123 also has ['amxextrh', 'amxextrv']. [0] https://www.anandtech.com/show/14892/the-apple-iphone-11-pro-and-max-review/2#twitter-widget-0:~:text=A%20big%20change%20to%20the%20CPU,%E2%80%9Cmachine%20learning%20accelerators%E2%80%9D%20into%20the%20microarchitecture https://www.anandtech.com/show/14892/the-apple-iphone-11-pro.... [1] https://www.realworldtech.com/forum/?threadid=187087&curpostid= https://www.realworldtech.com/forum/?threadid=187087&curpost...