4 ms·

The strangest part of this - winning is literally impossible, right? They buy chips in the game, but there's no way to turn them back into money...

recursive 6y ago
Maybe most players never get around to realizing this. In order to try to cash out, you'd have to beat the house.
badRNG 6y ago
I'm completely confused here. I have always assumed gambling addiction is centered on winning it big, to recoup prior losses, or to otherwise change one's station in life. None of these things are possible on these apps. I'm actually at a point of disbelief. I simply don't believe that gamblers spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on a game they know will never make them any money. I'm open to the idea, but it certainly strains credulity. Why? Why would anyone do that? What would even drive one to do that?
- mimixco 6y ago
  From what I've read, gamblers are actually addicted to losing. They expect it and keep coming back, which is why a zero-win game is addictive, too.
- vsareto 6y ago
  >Why? Why would anyone do that? What would even drive one to do that? It's addiction, it isn't rational.
- TheOtherHobbes 6y ago
  You overestimate the human potential to be a rational actor. You pay for the dopamine hit you get when you "win." The money - in real gambling - is a nice bonus. But it's the hope of a neurotransmitter cascade in the brain that's really in charge. See variable reinforcement schedules: https://allpsych.com/psychology101/learning/reinforcement/ https://allpsych.com/psychology101/learning/reinforcement/
- GaryNumanVevo 6y ago
  My cynical take: there’s probably a nontrivial amount of money laundering going on through these apps. Especially prevalent in any game that accepts “gift cards” as payment. Typically you’d pay people cash in hand to go buy a $1000 worth of gift cards in cash. My non-cynical take: gambling addiction seems pretty prevalent in at least American society and this is just the market responding to those conditions.
  - bartread 6y ago
    > there’s probably a nontrivial amount of money laundering going on through these apps. You can't really launder money through an app that offers no way to get money back out of it. If there were a way to "gift" coins to people, which would allow them to be sold on sites like eBay, then you could launder money, because you'd be able to buy coins from Big Fish, and sell them elsewhere at a discount. You'd lose money on the flip but then, when you launder money, you always lose some portion of it (often quite a large portion). (I don't know enough about these apps to know whether that's an option or not, but I suspect not.) The only way Big Fish could be used to launder money is if they were owned by the people doing the laundering, who would then have a route to get money "through" the company. For third parties I don't think it's a possibility, unless they were in cahoots with the owners. Actual gambling apps would provide a much better option for laundering money, which is perhaps a bigger motivator for regulation of that industry than addiction is. Or at least they would in a cash environment. Apps maybe less so because there's always a paper trail for the money (not to say it can't be done though). Take all this with a pinch of salt because it's hardly my area of expertise but the main point stands: to launder money you have to have a way of getting money both into and out of a business.
    - GaryNumanVevo 6y ago
      Apologizes, I meant to say that if you owned the application, it would be a super easy way to launder. Especially due to the sheer volume of similar apps on the play store and numerous grey-market giftcard processors. dirty cash -> giftcards -> casino app -> app developer
- falcolas 6y ago
  The act of spinning the wheel is its own reward, dopamine wise. The anticipation of winning it big. The colorful displays. The hope as the wheel looks like it's going to land on the big payout. Even losing is its own rush. And if you do win... can cashing out for boring dollars ever compare to the excitement of being allowed to spin the wheel again - for the chance of an even bigger prize? It's a finely tuned dopamine loop that's been perfected over centuries, designed with one goal: to keep susceptible people pulling the lever. The house, after all, doesn't win if you leave.
- awinder 6y ago
  You’d be surprised. From experience most people I’ve known with gambling addictions could go on the worlds longest luck streak, win all the money in the world, and then figure out a way to gamble more. The station in life thing just gets redefined and redefined because the addiction is to (imo) the chemical madhouse that goes on in your brain when you’re in the thick of it.
- bartread 6y ago
  So was I, but it's the social aspects - the clubs, and maintaining your standing in the club structure - that are the incentive. I can certainly see that being enough to persuade some people to spend hundreds, maybe even thousands. But there are always outliers, which is why I can swallow the idea - even though it's bonkers - that somebody might spend $400k over 8 years, or still be spending $600/month even though they know it's bad for them.
- currymj 6y ago
  i mentioned this in another comment, but there are two kinds of gambler. the stereotypically "male" kind wants to take risks, win big, prove they are skilled, etc. and will tend to play games like roulette or blackjack, or poker, or bet on sports and horses. there is a different kind, associated more with slot machines and female gamblers, where they're not playing to win, they're playing to keep playing -- the slot machine produces a mental state that they find compelling and difficult to leave. from the way people describe it it's comparable to "one more turn" in video games.
moojd 6y ago
People spend tens of thousands of dollars gambling on what are essentially just PNGs of cute anime girls in gatcha games [0]. Someone else in the thread linked Fate Grand Order which has over $4 billion in revenue. I didn't really understand it until I watched this very NSFW video [1]. The presenter does a great job of explaining what gatcha games are and the history behind them. He also spends $1000 to show what you actually get for your money in these games. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gacha_game https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gacha_game [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvdtJsZpuQ4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvdtJsZpuQ4
falcolas 6y ago
Winning gives you more spins; why would you ever cash out? It's like living in Las Vegas, there's no need for you to ever swap your currencies back. And the precedent has been set when it comes to these kinds of monetization strategies. It has been normalized by FIFA, Overwatch, Clash of Clans, and every other game that has MTX of some sort. We can even point blame at the XBox game store for this, for being early to the "abstracting the currency you're spending from real currency" race. All these casino games are doing is sliding down the slippery slope already carved by these other industry giants.
- awinder 6y ago
  There’s precedent, but this takes precedent to its logical conclusion (the game _is_ the loot box). Usually it’s the people taking things to the logical conclusion that helps us define boundaries, rightfully so. “It’s like living in Los Vegas” Hmm now here is an idea. It’s not quite like living in Las Vegas because people that do that are regularly converting to physical goods for life essentials, they’re eating and getting a roof etc. Maybe these guys should build a town where you can redeem for lodging and food etc, then I’m in.
  - falcolas 6y ago
    I don't have hard data about the second part, but it strikes me as the two cash streams would be largely separate for most people who live in Las Vegas. I posit that they'll simply carry around the "cashout" tickets, and scan them back into the system the next time they visit the casino. I hypothesize that they rarely, if ever, actually cash out.

recursive 6y ago

Maybe most players never get around to realizing this. In order to try to cash out, you'd have to beat the house.

badRNG 6y ago

I'm completely confused here. I have always assumed gambling addiction is centered on winning it big, to recoup prior losses, or to otherwise change one's station in life. None of these things are possible on these apps. I'm actually at a point of disbelief. I simply don't believe that gamblers spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on a game they know will never make them any money. I'm open to the idea, but it certainly strains credulity. Why? Why would anyone do that? What would even drive one to do that?

mimixco 6y ago
From what I've read, gamblers are actually addicted to losing. They expect it and keep coming back, which is why a zero-win game is addictive, too.
vsareto 6y ago
>Why? Why would anyone do that? What would even drive one to do that? It's addiction, it isn't rational.
TheOtherHobbes 6y ago
You overestimate the human potential to be a rational actor. You pay for the dopamine hit you get when you "win." The money - in real gambling - is a nice bonus. But it's the hope of a neurotransmitter cascade in the brain that's really in charge. See variable reinforcement schedules: https://allpsych.com/psychology101/learning/reinforcement/ https://allpsych.com/psychology101/learning/reinforcement/
GaryNumanVevo 6y ago
My cynical take: there’s probably a nontrivial amount of money laundering going on through these apps. Especially prevalent in any game that accepts “gift cards” as payment. Typically you’d pay people cash in hand to go buy a $1000 worth of gift cards in cash. My non-cynical take: gambling addiction seems pretty prevalent in at least American society and this is just the market responding to those conditions.
- bartread 6y ago
  > there’s probably a nontrivial amount of money laundering going on through these apps. You can't really launder money through an app that offers no way to get money back out of it. If there were a way to "gift" coins to people, which would allow them to be sold on sites like eBay, then you could launder money, because you'd be able to buy coins from Big Fish, and sell them elsewhere at a discount. You'd lose money on the flip but then, when you launder money, you always lose some portion of it (often quite a large portion). (I don't know enough about these apps to know whether that's an option or not, but I suspect not.) The only way Big Fish could be used to launder money is if they were owned by the people doing the laundering, who would then have a route to get money "through" the company. For third parties I don't think it's a possibility, unless they were in cahoots with the owners. Actual gambling apps would provide a much better option for laundering money, which is perhaps a bigger motivator for regulation of that industry than addiction is. Or at least they would in a cash environment. Apps maybe less so because there's always a paper trail for the money (not to say it can't be done though). Take all this with a pinch of salt because it's hardly my area of expertise but the main point stands: to launder money you have to have a way of getting money both into and out of a business.
  - GaryNumanVevo 6y ago
    Apologizes, I meant to say that if you owned the application, it would be a super easy way to launder. Especially due to the sheer volume of similar apps on the play store and numerous grey-market giftcard processors. dirty cash -> giftcards -> casino app -> app developer
falcolas 6y ago
The act of spinning the wheel is its own reward, dopamine wise. The anticipation of winning it big. The colorful displays. The hope as the wheel looks like it's going to land on the big payout. Even losing is its own rush. And if you do win... can cashing out for boring dollars ever compare to the excitement of being allowed to spin the wheel again - for the chance of an even bigger prize? It's a finely tuned dopamine loop that's been perfected over centuries, designed with one goal: to keep susceptible people pulling the lever. The house, after all, doesn't win if you leave.
awinder 6y ago
You’d be surprised. From experience most people I’ve known with gambling addictions could go on the worlds longest luck streak, win all the money in the world, and then figure out a way to gamble more. The station in life thing just gets redefined and redefined because the addiction is to (imo) the chemical madhouse that goes on in your brain when you’re in the thick of it.
bartread 6y ago
So was I, but it's the social aspects - the clubs, and maintaining your standing in the club structure - that are the incentive. I can certainly see that being enough to persuade some people to spend hundreds, maybe even thousands. But there are always outliers, which is why I can swallow the idea - even though it's bonkers - that somebody might spend $400k over 8 years, or still be spending $600/month even though they know it's bad for them.
currymj 6y ago
i mentioned this in another comment, but there are two kinds of gambler. the stereotypically "male" kind wants to take risks, win big, prove they are skilled, etc. and will tend to play games like roulette or blackjack, or poker, or bet on sports and horses. there is a different kind, associated more with slot machines and female gamblers, where they're not playing to win, they're playing to keep playing -- the slot machine produces a mental state that they find compelling and difficult to leave. from the way people describe it it's comparable to "one more turn" in video games.

moojd 6y ago

People spend tens of thousands of dollars gambling on what are essentially just PNGs of cute anime girls in gatcha games [0]. Someone else in the thread linked Fate Grand Order which has over $4 billion in revenue. I didn't really understand it until I watched this very NSFW video [1]. The presenter does a great job of explaining what gatcha games are and the history behind them. He also spends $1000 to show what you actually get for your money in these games. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gacha_game https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gacha_game [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvdtJsZpuQ4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvdtJsZpuQ4

falcolas 6y ago

Winning gives you more spins; why would you ever cash out? It's like living in Las Vegas, there's no need for you to ever swap your currencies back. And the precedent has been set when it comes to these kinds of monetization strategies. It has been normalized by FIFA, Overwatch, Clash of Clans, and every other game that has MTX of some sort. We can even point blame at the XBox game store for this, for being early to the "abstracting the currency you're spending from real currency" race. All these casino games are doing is sliding down the slippery slope already carved by these other industry giants.

awinder 6y ago
There’s precedent, but this takes precedent to its logical conclusion (the game _is_ the loot box). Usually it’s the people taking things to the logical conclusion that helps us define boundaries, rightfully so. “It’s like living in Los Vegas” Hmm now here is an idea. It’s not quite like living in Las Vegas because people that do that are regularly converting to physical goods for life essentials, they’re eating and getting a roof etc. Maybe these guys should build a town where you can redeem for lodging and food etc, then I’m in.
- falcolas 6y ago
  I don't have hard data about the second part, but it strikes me as the two cash streams would be largely separate for most people who live in Las Vegas. I posit that they'll simply carry around the "cashout" tickets, and scan them back into the system the next time they visit the casino. I hypothesize that they rarely, if ever, actually cash out.