4 ms·

Let's assume, by chance, there's some strain of bacteria that can not only survive but thrive in Venus's environment. This bacteria is introduced to an environ

by fiblye 6y ago

Let's assume, by chance, there's some strain of bacteria that can not only survive but thrive in Venus's environment. This bacteria is introduced to an environment that has all it needs to spread quickly. There's absolutely nothing out there that it has to compete with. There's nothing out there consuming it or infecting it or otherwise inhibiting its growth other than a lack of whatever nutrient it consumes. Rabbits went from 0 to over 200 million in under 200 years in Australia, and that's with snakes and disease. Apparently they spread across the continent in just 50 years.[1] Rabbits generally reproduce at a small fraction of the rate of bacteria, although exceptions exist. Note: I'm not saying humans definitely introduced bacteria to Venus and that's the source. I'm saying if conditions are by some chance ideal, and these things are apparently thriving in the atmosphere, it shouldn't be hard to spread across the planet incredibly fast. [1] https://www.nationalgeographic.org/article/how-european-rabbits-took-over-australia/ https://www.nationalgeographic.org/article/how-european-rabb...

joshuahedlund 6y ago
Seems from other comments[0] that the first indicators of these moving phosphene regions were detected a century ago, which would seem to rule out even rapid Soviet contamination? [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24469567 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24469567
- cowboysauce 6y ago
  Those regions contain an unknown substance that absorb UV light. There is currently no connection to this announcement. Though one of the possible causes of those regions is that they are caused by life in Venus’ atmosphere.
  - saberdancer 6y ago
    There is no connection but one of theories that was proposed for the unknown absorbers was that they are in fact microbes. So not only do we have no good explanation for phosphine, we do not have a good explanation for the unknown absorbers. Well, we do have one good explanation although it seemed unlikely and that is life. Given that this is second effect that could be explained with microbes I feel it adds that much more weight to the theory.
modzu 6y ago
it reminds me of an (asimov?) book where the plants on a planet live in limelight and when astronauts shine their lights on them they explode with growth.. anyone know it?
- tonyg 6y ago
  It's the story of the /Tsien/ from the opening of 2010: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010:_Odyssey_Two https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010:_Odyssey_Two
pc86 6y ago
I don't mean this as a counterpoint to your argument, which I think is a valid one, or as any kind of sarcasm. But even as a relative layperson as far as these things go (1 college semester each of bio and o-chem, which I didn't do all that well in) I would be extremely interested in learning about any bacteria that could a) survive on Earth at a large enough scale to find its way onto a Soviet spacecraft; b) survive a trip through space; c) not only survive but thrive on Venus so much so that it reproduces enough for us to pick it up now. Hopefully if they can get a probe out there they would be able to tell definitively if it was Soviet contamination or not, although I'm not sure how they would be able to do that. I could see them ruling it out (some entirely different DNA structure or something) but not sure how they'd say 100% that it was Soviet in origin.
- pvg 6y ago
  On the first two, bacteria are pretty much ubiquitous and constitute a significant chunk of total biomass on Earth. They can form spores some of which are exceptionally sturdy. It's not too hard to imagine some sort of conditions in which c) can happen - you sent a yeast probe to a sugar water ocean planet but that doesn't sound too much like Venus.
- saberdancer 6y ago
  Exactly. I do not think that contamination by Venera probes is likely suspect. The atmosphere of Venus has no oxygen and most life on Earth needs oxygen. Even extremophile life on Earth isn't extreme enough for Venus so it would be extraordinary set of circumstances that Venera probe is contaminated with just the right type of bacteria that is then able to adapt to Venus and spread planetwide.
- kortex 6y ago
  I have a degee in chem. Your intuition is spot on. Lets assume Venera 3 wasn't sterilized (reports in 1966 say it was [1] but the effectiveness is contested [2]). Even if spores did survive the space trip (actually quite plausible, [0], venus trip is ~110 days), the atmosphere is extremely dessicating and acidic (SO2, SO3, H2SO4), and the ground is too hot for any known life. The dessication and osmotic pressure is the real kicker. It's very unlikely spores would germinate without rehydration. [0] https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/research/news/eu_tef/ https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/research/news/eu_... [1] https://www.nytimes.com/1966/03/06/archives/soviet-says-venus-3-spacecraft-was-sterilized.html https://www.nytimes.com/1966/03/06/archives/soviet-says-venu... [2] https://www.jstor.org/stable/1720963 https://www.jstor.org/stable/1720963
Ziggy_Zaggy 6y ago
This.

by fiblye 6y ago

joshuahedlund 6y ago

Seems from other comments[0] that the first indicators of these moving phosphene regions were detected a century ago, which would seem to rule out even rapid Soviet contamination? [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24469567 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24469567

cowboysauce 6y ago
Those regions contain an unknown substance that absorb UV light. There is currently no connection to this announcement. Though one of the possible causes of those regions is that they are caused by life in Venus’ atmosphere.
- saberdancer 6y ago
  There is no connection but one of theories that was proposed for the unknown absorbers was that they are in fact microbes. So not only do we have no good explanation for phosphine, we do not have a good explanation for the unknown absorbers. Well, we do have one good explanation although it seemed unlikely and that is life. Given that this is second effect that could be explained with microbes I feel it adds that much more weight to the theory.

modzu 6y ago

it reminds me of an (asimov?) book where the plants on a planet live in limelight and when astronauts shine their lights on them they explode with growth.. anyone know it?

tonyg 6y ago
It's the story of the /Tsien/ from the opening of 2010: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010:_Odyssey_Two https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010:_Odyssey_Two

pc86 6y ago

I don't mean this as a counterpoint to your argument, which I think is a valid one, or as any kind of sarcasm. But even as a relative layperson as far as these things go (1 college semester each of bio and o-chem, which I didn't do all that well in) I would be extremely interested in learning about any bacteria that could a) survive on Earth at a large enough scale to find its way onto a Soviet spacecraft; b) survive a trip through space; c) not only survive but thrive on Venus so much so that it reproduces enough for us to pick it up now. Hopefully if they can get a probe out there they would be able to tell definitively if it was Soviet contamination or not, although I'm not sure how they would be able to do that. I could see them ruling it out (some entirely different DNA structure or something) but not sure how they'd say 100% that it was Soviet in origin.

pvg 6y ago
On the first two, bacteria are pretty much ubiquitous and constitute a significant chunk of total biomass on Earth. They can form spores some of which are exceptionally sturdy. It's not too hard to imagine some sort of conditions in which c) can happen - you sent a yeast probe to a sugar water ocean planet but that doesn't sound too much like Venus.
saberdancer 6y ago
Exactly. I do not think that contamination by Venera probes is likely suspect. The atmosphere of Venus has no oxygen and most life on Earth needs oxygen. Even extremophile life on Earth isn't extreme enough for Venus so it would be extraordinary set of circumstances that Venera probe is contaminated with just the right type of bacteria that is then able to adapt to Venus and spread planetwide.
kortex 6y ago
I have a degee in chem. Your intuition is spot on. Lets assume Venera 3 wasn't sterilized (reports in 1966 say it was [1] but the effectiveness is contested [2]). Even if spores did survive the space trip (actually quite plausible, [0], venus trip is ~110 days), the atmosphere is extremely dessicating and acidic (SO2, SO3, H2SO4), and the ground is too hot for any known life. The dessication and osmotic pressure is the real kicker. It's very unlikely spores would germinate without rehydration. [0] https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/research/news/eu_tef/ https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/station/research/news/eu_... [1] https://www.nytimes.com/1966/03/06/archives/soviet-says-venus-3-spacecraft-was-sterilized.html https://www.nytimes.com/1966/03/06/archives/soviet-says-venu... [2] https://www.jstor.org/stable/1720963 https://www.jstor.org/stable/1720963

Ziggy_Zaggy 6y ago

This.