8 ms·

Agreed. It's the same irony around the fears of Huawei's 5G, whilst the entire world IT is run on operating systems owned by US companies. I can't remember the

Agreed. It's the same irony around the fears of Huawei's 5G, whilst the entire world IT is run on operating systems owned by US companies. I can't remember the last time China tried to assassinate a country leader in South America, or a country which has been bombed by Chinese drones, or a WikiLeaks document which proved that China is spying on the entire world. On the other hand... I genuinely can't remember a single year where the US didn't bomb a country..

Craighead 6y ago
But you do remember the last time they participated in genocide, and social credit systems that target mentally ill students in classrooms?
mam2 6y ago
Yeah china is such a nice country, not at all imperialistic, and friendly to our values.
- dang 6y ago
  Please stop posting unsubstantive and/or flamebait comments to HN. We've had to ask you this more than once already. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - mam2 6y ago
    This is not unsubstantiative. It's called reframing the person's point in a new light, and it's valid debating technique, although indeed it often points out stupid parts in the other persons view points. John steward did it all the time in his show. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPgZfhnCAdI&feature=youtu.be&t=410 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPgZfhnCAdI&feature=youtu.be...
manigandham 6y ago
China has far greater internal issues of oppression and authoritarianism. It also meddles in foreign affairs around the world but you probably don't hear about it. See Africa and the belt-and-road initiative for some details on the damage done.
tgv 6y ago
I can't remember when the US built concentration camps specifically for a remote Muslim minority, or when they built islands to falsely stake territorial claims, or ... Your arguments have been cherry-picked in a such a way, that "bad faith" comes to mind.
- devilcius 6y ago
  Some would argue Guantanamo Bay is a concentration camp: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detention_camp#Criticism_and_condemnation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detention_camp#...
  - lawnchair_larry 6y ago
    Nobody credible who knows what a concentration camp is would.
  - throw0101a 6y ago
    And many of America's own citizens criticize the US government for running it. What happens to Chinese citizens when they comment negatively on the Uighur camps? The fact that the US does not always live up to the ideals its espouses is no knock against those ideals. The American system, for all of its faults, at least manages to select correct at times to point closer to its ideals. Maybe I don't follow closely enough, but I generally don't see anything like that happening. Perhaps a bit of 'de-Maoification' of his personality cult at one point? The embrace of a more market economy wasn't a good accepted for its own sake, but more for its practical benefits, so I wouldn't count that.
    - rchaud 6y ago
      In some ways, that is the genius of Pax Americana. Give people the idea that they have a voice to criticize and to change policy, and forever hold the moral high ground over regimes that don't bother to make that pretense. Then have politicians run for office promising to address that. Once they're in office, they drop it completely, blaming bureaucracy and 'lack of political will'. Then voters start all over again, with heads held high on the belief that what they want could theoretically be possible with the next candidate. Or the one after that. The Obama administration came into office on a promise to close Guantanamo, and offer a public option on healthcare. Neither came anywhere close to fruition.
YetAnotherNick 6y ago
The problem with your logic is you are comparing US to "the world" and China as small resourceless player. The case here is more akin to China blocking US products and US blocking china's product. If US consistently blocks without reason, let's say Germany's cars, then I think Germany have ethical ground in blocking US's cars.
tolien 6y ago
> a country which has been bombed by Chinese drones There's evidence that Chinese-made drones are being used by the UAE in Libya [1], including in a drone strike that killed 26 people [2]. 1: https://www.theguardian.com/news/2019/nov/27/libya-is-ground-zero-drones-on-frontline-in-bloody-civil-war https://www.theguardian.com/news/2019/nov/27/libya-is-ground... 2: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-53917791 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-53917791
- reyqn 6y ago
  I think he meant drones operated by china, but I might be wrong.
  - tolien 6y ago
    You're not wrong, but the US/UK get the blame when client nations use weapons sold to them (see: Saudi Arabia). The Chinese shouldn't get a free pass for selling weapons into the Middle East with scant regard for how they're used either. Also, from the Graun link in my parent post: > the US remains unwilling to allow countries in the conflict-torn Middle East to buy its Reaper drones.
    - newen 6y ago
      There is a massive difference between bombing conducted by a country and bombing conducted by another country using the country's weapons.
      - tolien 6y ago
        Not to anyone on the receiving end.
newbie578 6y ago
Are you serious with these arguments? I am honestly baffled how people are STILL willing to defend China in 2020. How about this, go to New York, stand at Times Square and yell out: "Fuck Trump". Then, go to Peking, stand at Tiananmen Square and yell out: "Fuck Winnie The Pooh". Let me know how you fare out :)
- pjmlp 6y ago
  I guess the outcome at Times Square depends how dark the skin colour happens to be.
lawnchair_larry 6y ago
You really don’t know how pervasive Chinese espionage is?
rasz 6y ago
I can't remember the last time Cisco copied Chinese product 1:1 and sold it openly as their own.
- hoptank 6y ago
  This Cisco? "As part of the Great Firewall, beginning in 2003 China started the Golden Shield Project, a massive surveillance and censoring system, the hardware for which was provided by mostly U.S. companies, including Cisco Systems. " https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Firewall https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Firewall
xster 6y ago
You don't remember because the US has only been not at war for 17 years since its founding.
dang 6y ago
Please don't take HN threads further into nationalistic flamewar. Such threads are extremely repetitive and deeply uncurious, and therefore off topic here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- dustinmoris 6y ago
  Sure, good reminder, thank you!

Craighead 6y ago

But you do remember the last time they participated in genocide, and social credit systems that target mentally ill students in classrooms?

mam2 6y ago

Yeah china is such a nice country, not at all imperialistic, and friendly to our values.

dang 6y ago
Please stop posting unsubstantive and/or flamebait comments to HN. We've had to ask you this more than once already. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- mam2 6y ago
  This is not unsubstantiative. It's called reframing the person's point in a new light, and it's valid debating technique, although indeed it often points out stupid parts in the other persons view points. John steward did it all the time in his show. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPgZfhnCAdI&feature=youtu.be&t=410 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPgZfhnCAdI&feature=youtu.be...

manigandham 6y ago

China has far greater internal issues of oppression and authoritarianism. It also meddles in foreign affairs around the world but you probably don't hear about it. See Africa and the belt-and-road initiative for some details on the damage done.

tgv 6y ago

I can't remember when the US built concentration camps specifically for a remote Muslim minority, or when they built islands to falsely stake territorial claims, or ... Your arguments have been cherry-picked in a such a way, that "bad faith" comes to mind.

devilcius 6y ago
Some would argue Guantanamo Bay is a concentration camp: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detention_camp#Criticism_and_condemnation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detention_camp#...
- lawnchair_larry 6y ago
  Nobody credible who knows what a concentration camp is would.
- throw0101a 6y ago
  And many of America's own citizens criticize the US government for running it. What happens to Chinese citizens when they comment negatively on the Uighur camps? The fact that the US does not always live up to the ideals its espouses is no knock against those ideals. The American system, for all of its faults, at least manages to select correct at times to point closer to its ideals. Maybe I don't follow closely enough, but I generally don't see anything like that happening. Perhaps a bit of 'de-Maoification' of his personality cult at one point? The embrace of a more market economy wasn't a good accepted for its own sake, but more for its practical benefits, so I wouldn't count that.
  - rchaud 6y ago
    In some ways, that is the genius of Pax Americana. Give people the idea that they have a voice to criticize and to change policy, and forever hold the moral high ground over regimes that don't bother to make that pretense. Then have politicians run for office promising to address that. Once they're in office, they drop it completely, blaming bureaucracy and 'lack of political will'. Then voters start all over again, with heads held high on the belief that what they want could theoretically be possible with the next candidate. Or the one after that. The Obama administration came into office on a promise to close Guantanamo, and offer a public option on healthcare. Neither came anywhere close to fruition.

YetAnotherNick 6y ago

The problem with your logic is you are comparing US to "the world" and China as small resourceless player. The case here is more akin to China blocking US products and US blocking china's product. If US consistently blocks without reason, let's say Germany's cars, then I think Germany have ethical ground in blocking US's cars.

tolien 6y ago

> a country which has been bombed by Chinese drones There's evidence that Chinese-made drones are being used by the UAE in Libya [1], including in a drone strike that killed 26 people [2]. 1: https://www.theguardian.com/news/2019/nov/27/libya-is-ground-zero-drones-on-frontline-in-bloody-civil-war https://www.theguardian.com/news/2019/nov/27/libya-is-ground... 2: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-53917791 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-53917791

reyqn 6y ago
I think he meant drones operated by china, but I might be wrong.
- tolien 6y ago
  You're not wrong, but the US/UK get the blame when client nations use weapons sold to them (see: Saudi Arabia). The Chinese shouldn't get a free pass for selling weapons into the Middle East with scant regard for how they're used either. Also, from the Graun link in my parent post: > the US remains unwilling to allow countries in the conflict-torn Middle East to buy its Reaper drones.
  - newen 6y ago
    There is a massive difference between bombing conducted by a country and bombing conducted by another country using the country's weapons.
    - tolien 6y ago
      Not to anyone on the receiving end.

newbie578 6y ago

Are you serious with these arguments? I am honestly baffled how people are STILL willing to defend China in 2020. How about this, go to New York, stand at Times Square and yell out: "Fuck Trump". Then, go to Peking, stand at Tiananmen Square and yell out: "Fuck Winnie The Pooh". Let me know how you fare out :)

pjmlp 6y ago
I guess the outcome at Times Square depends how dark the skin colour happens to be.

lawnchair_larry 6y ago

You really don’t know how pervasive Chinese espionage is?

rasz 6y ago

I can't remember the last time Cisco copied Chinese product 1:1 and sold it openly as their own.

hoptank 6y ago
This Cisco? "As part of the Great Firewall, beginning in 2003 China started the Golden Shield Project, a massive surveillance and censoring system, the hardware for which was provided by mostly U.S. companies, including Cisco Systems. " https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Firewall https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Firewall

xster 6y ago

You don't remember because the US has only been not at war for 17 years since its founding.

dang 6y ago

Please don't take HN threads further into nationalistic flamewar. Such threads are extremely repetitive and deeply uncurious, and therefore off topic here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

dustinmoris 6y ago
Sure, good reminder, thank you!