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At this point it's just hilarious how this issue in the name of national security for TikTok is of concern but Facebook is not similar concern for other countri

At this point it's just hilarious how this issue in the name of national security for TikTok is of concern but Facebook is not similar concern for other countries.

leto_ii 6y ago
This is the privilege of being the only actual superpower in the world. Your national interest extends all over the world and other nations don't get to have a say in it. American control of the internet is a concern for other nations, and the ones that can do something about it (China, Russia) are working hard to become independent of it. Most nations however just get to pick what bubble they want to live in - the US one, the Chinese one, to a lesser extent the Russian one.
- Arnt 6y ago
  And others' interests do not extend? Anyway, I question the factualality of the superpower status. The US wasn't able to impose its will on even a minor warlord such as Mohammed Farrah Aidid. He stayed, the US soldiers withdrew.
  - leto_ii 6y ago
    > And others' interests do not extend? Other countries simply don't have the power to project their interests globally. For example Iran doesn't assassinate top US generals with drones. I imagine they would like to, they just can't. If it ever became apparent that other countries were on track to developing tools that the US can't control, the US would simply strike preemptively (this applies to weapons, as well as economic matters - TikTok, Huawei etc.). > Anyway, I question the factualality of the superpower status. The US wasn't able to impose its will on even a minor warlord such as Mohammed Farrah Aidid. He stayed, the US soldiers withdrew. I don't know the case of Aidid specifically, so I can't comment on it. I do know however that if the US is interested enough in something to happen, that thing will happen almost certainly, almost anywhere. I can only assume that Somalia was not that important for US interests.
    - thomasahle 6y ago
      What you say is all true, but it is important to remember that the US diplomatic power is fsr more efficient than the brute force you allude to. If the US hadn't allowed NSA to spy on its allies, fewer of those allies would now be inclined to join with Huawei. If the US didn't have Guantanamo, fewer countries would block extradition of people of interest to the US. Sure, if you are a super power you can pretend might makes right, but it still comes with a cost.
      - christophilus 6y ago
        Agreed. And the costs add up. The US has been eroding it’s goodwill for a very long time. I wonder how long it is until the tipping point is reached. Dollar hegemony probably means there’s a bit of runway left.
      - leto_ii 6y ago
        I agree with your points. If things go the way they've been going over the past 4 yrs, I suspect that the US will end up ruling by force more and more. I also suspect that China will be allowed to carve out a sphere of strong influence in South-East Asia; this fact in turn will likely lead to a re-militarization of Japan. These are all really unfortunate developments and I hope that history will prove me wrong.
        rangibaby 6y ago
        How is China going to carve that sphere of influence out? It's surrounded by nations that are wary of that exact thing happening (again). > this fact in turn will likely lead to a re-militarization of Japan. Japan already has a powerful military, with the capability of building nuclear weapons immediately. The Japanese have bad marketing, but following WWII they effectively stopped being chauvinist as a nation.
        leto_ii 6y ago
        > How is China going to carve that sphere of influence out? Among other things, my expectation is that Taiwan will go the way of HK. South Korea may at some point reunite with NK and enter the Chinese sphere of influence more strongly. South East Asian nations are already strongly influenced by China. > Japan already has a powerful military They still have a pacifist constitution, I think [1]. > following WWII they effectively stopped being chauvinist as a nation The definition of chauvinism is vague and I think it would be unproductive to enter a debate about which nation is/isn't chauvinistic. In my view a form of potential chauvinism is built into any nation state. Nation states are a relatively modern fiction that depends to a certain extent on the belief that there is a 'we' that is different and sometimes better than 'them'. However, in my previous comment I didn't mean to imply that Japanese imperial ambitions will be reignited. Simply that Japan will feel threatened by Chinese power and, unlike other nations in the region, will be more likely to strongly oppose that power, rather than accommodate it. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_9_of_the_Japanese_Constitution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_9_of_the_Japanese_Cons...
abc-xyz 6y ago
Not sure why you’d think Facebook isn’t a national security concern for other countries. I mean in China they outright banned Facebook, and EU have ordered Facebook (and others) to restrict data sent from EU to US. The only thing unique about this case is the fact that USA might ban the app, which is fair considering China does the same to US tech companies.
- rfoo 6y ago
  > they outright banned Facebook For a different (and more stupid) reason though. It's not like CCP banned Facebook for sending home data, they banned Facebook for not being able to comply to censorship requirements. iCloud would be a better example here.
  - wokwokwok 6y ago
    Sure; but it’s an almost irrelevant detail. The point being made is that government intervention is a given in China at every level. You can argue either way on if it’s “right” for the US to be doing it too, but it’s a bit rich to make a song and dance about how unfair it is under the circumstances. I’m 100% happy to agree governments in general, should keep out of this stuff, but that’s not the world we live in, or have lived in, for a very long time... /shrug It sucks, but it’s kind of hard to be sympathetic, honestly. You reap what you sow.
- ezconnect 6y ago
  What's unique about this is the US government is telling them to sell it to a US company. It would have been normal to just outright ban it for security reasons the sell it or get ban part is the scary part.
  - tatersolid 6y ago
    > What's unique about this is the US government is telling them to sell it to a US company This is exactly what China does to foreign companies who wish to operate in China. The US is simply pursuing a model of reciprocal trade protections and tariffs.
wp381640 6y ago
Facebook is blocked in China
- throw665439 6y ago
  Only because Facebook does not follow China’s censorship and data storage laws.
  - unicornfinder 6y ago
    Actually I don't believe that's the real reason. I think Facebook would be more than happy to co-operate. For China, the problem with Facebook isn't control or censorship, but rather providing protectionism for their own brands, i.e. WeChat.
    - wp381640 6y ago
      That's exactly right. Anybody who has been at a moderately successful startup knows all too well the step where a Chinese company will approach you to "partner"[0] into the Chinese market [0] Where "partner" means - setup a local JP we control and give us your IP and you will own a "share" (but good luck with the local courts when things go wrong!)
      - AmericanChopper 6y ago
        The fact that anybody could point fingers at the US for making it difficult for China to do business here is absurd. China is one of the most hostile protectionist economies. The US has never done anything that even approaches how difficult it is for a foreign business to trade in China. I’m quite a strong advocate for free trade. But if a country has locked you out of their market, I don’t think you should give them easy access to yours.
        wombatmobile 6y ago
        6 Businesses with Success in China (and How They Did It) https://blog.btrax.com/6-businesses-with-success-in-china-and-how-they-did-it/ https://blog.btrax.com/6-businesses-with-success-in-china-an...
iamnotarobotman 6y ago
Facebook has been banned in China since 2009. (11 years ago)
dustinmoris 6y ago
Agreed. It's the same irony around the fears of Huawei's 5G, whilst the entire world IT is run on operating systems owned by US companies. I can't remember the last time China tried to assassinate a country leader in South America, or a country which has been bombed by Chinese drones, or a WikiLeaks document which proved that China is spying on the entire world. On the other hand... I genuinely can't remember a single year where the US didn't bomb a country..
- Craighead 6y ago
  But you do remember the last time they participated in genocide, and social credit systems that target mentally ill students in classrooms?
- mam2 6y ago
  Yeah china is such a nice country, not at all imperialistic, and friendly to our values.
  - dang 6y ago
    Please stop posting unsubstantive and/or flamebait comments to HN. We've had to ask you this more than once already. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - mam2 6y ago
      This is not unsubstantiative. It's called reframing the person's point in a new light, and it's valid debating technique, although indeed it often points out stupid parts in the other persons view points. John steward did it all the time in his show. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPgZfhnCAdI&feature=youtu.be&t=410 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPgZfhnCAdI&feature=youtu.be...
- manigandham 6y ago
  China has far greater internal issues of oppression and authoritarianism. It also meddles in foreign affairs around the world but you probably don't hear about it. See Africa and the belt-and-road initiative for some details on the damage done.
mrtksn 6y ago
It is a concern but until Trump the school of thought was that the right of free enterprise should be preserved and free markets will take care of it eventually, so other US friendly countries(EU especially) introduced data protection regulations instead of outright banning of having a country's communications pass through other country systems. Now that the USA is no longer pushing for global open markets but champions protectionism, you can be sure that other countries are itching to ban US companies. If the TikTok ban materialises, you can be sure that all other countries will follow and an era of global US internet companies will come to an end. Maybe giants like FB or Google will be able to set up local versions and keep their markets but there will be no longer companies that were started by few young people that grew to be global products because due to "national security" they will have to set up legal entities in each country and have their business&tech tuned for each markets regulations. Some will require you to keep certain data and give it to the government or else... others will prefer to have their cronies run this and will make sure that you won't succeed in that market. You thought GDPR is too restrictive? That was actually an attempt to keep global free market alive when fixing the associated national security risks but since USA seems to be choosing the Chinese approach of banning companies instead of regulating them, you can expect that GDPR will loose relevance as EU & others will also look into banning foreign internet companies. The annoying cookie pop-up might not made internet businesses change their behaviour but it definitely built an awareness that companies are tracking you. Now it will be quite easy to convince the population that for national security reasons FB/Google and others should be banned, and look even the USA is not allowing foreigners why should we? If the USA is banning apps and websites, obviously we can do it too without becoming totalitarian dictatorships like China, Russia, Cuba or DPRK. I am baffled why the USA choose to trash its global leader position here.
- TAForObvReasons 6y ago
  There's a good chance Zuckerberg convinced Trump to take action on TikTok: https://www.wsj.com/articles/facebook-ceo-mark-zuckerberg-stoked-washingtons-fears-about-tiktok-11598223133 https://www.wsj.com/articles/facebook-ceo-mark-zuckerberg-st...
  - 6y ago
thotsBgone 6y ago
America is imperfect, but China is evil. They are perpetrating a literal holocaust right now. The double standard is merited.
- dang 6y ago
  Please do not take HN threads into nationalistic flamewar, or any flamewar. It's not what this site is for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - thotsBgone 6y ago
    Denouncing an objectively evil and racist nationalistic gov't is not flaming.
Bayart 6y ago
The US government doesn't have nearly the amount of control or integration the Chinese have with their companies. It's simply not comparable. And I say that as a European who wants FB neutered.
- angio 6y ago
  Dosen't the CLOUD Act mean that the US government has access to all data owned by American companies, even if the data is physically outside the US?
- PeterStuer 6y ago
  It is irrelevant whether it is the government that controls the enterprises or the enterprises that control the government when the symbiotic entanglement runs that deep as is the case in both the US and China.
  - sonotathrowaway 6y ago
    I don’t ever remember anyone alleging the United States used the TAO to steal trade secrets to give to American corporations, nor do I ever recall them hacking other countries to gain advantages in trade negotiations. If you’d like to paint them as equally entwined, please cite your sources.
    - PeterStuer 6y ago
      It's pretty systemic, not an exception. Just of the top of my head. "In 1999, Enercon, a German company and leading manufacturer of wind energy equipment, developed a breakthrough generator for wind turbines. After applying for a US patent, it had learned that Kenetech, an American rival, had submitted an almost identical patent application shortly before. By the statement of a former NSA employee, it was later discovered that the NSA had secretly intercepted and monitored Enercon's data communications and conference calls and passed information regarding the new generator to Kenetech. As German intelligence services are forbidden from engaging in industrial or economic espionage, German companies are frequently complaining that this leaves them defenceless against industrial espionage from the United States. According to Wolfgang Hoffmann, a former manager at Bayer, German intelligence services are aware which companies are being targeted by US intelligence agencies, but refuse to inform the companies involved." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON#Examples_of_industrial_espionage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON#Examples_of_industrial...
quantummkv 6y ago
It's not the US that is engaged in wars with all of it's neighbors over capturing territory. China is. For all those countries like Japan, Taiwan, India, etc, US is not a concern. China is the immediate threat. And China will not shy away from using all of it's assets in this case. The mandatory Party Commissar in every organization will ensure that the assets comply.
- pjmlp 6y ago
  Yeah they are just responsible for the butterfly effect that gave us ISIS.
guywhocodes 6y ago
Exciting you mean! We could enter a phase of total regional lockdown, essentially the only path as I see it for reasonable privacy standards in smartphones. And we will know we got reasonable privacy in apps when websites like don't use every dark pattern in the book to push you to the app.
jariel 6y ago
They are not very comparable. The CCP has an agency within about 85% of Chinese firms, (soon 100%) to ensure companies adhere to the CCP agenda - they actively monitor, censor and promote state propaganda as well as track every citizen for potential wrong doing. Not only, the CCP will use these companies and all the information gathered for whatever use it sees fit i.e. theft, spycraft etc.. Xi can do whatever he wants, when he wants, to whomever, without any material oversight. Imagine if Trump could dig into the social media records of anyone in America - and a few billion around the world, willy nilly, at will, and do whatever he wants with that information? Obviously China faces repercussions for serious and obvious 'breaches' but they can avoid most of that if it's hidden. In the US, you generally have to commit some kind of crime or do something noteworthy to attract the ire of the authorities, after which a warrant must be issued for said person's information to be looked at - which is reasonable. There is somewhat of a problem in that the US doesn't care that much about the privacy of non-citizens, in which case, a photo of you smoking pot could get you barred from entry into the US without much oversight. This should be updated and regulated for sure - and non-American countries should either require 'foreign storage of data' or for reciprocity in terms of the information that can be looked at. I don't like Trump, but his push on TT has merit. What he should do is enact legislation that applies universally so that it's not directed in a politicized manner at a single company wherein there is a conflict of interest (TT users ganged together to help ruin his GOP convention - I don't think CCP had anything to do with it, but surely he's angry and wants personal revenge). It's hugely hypocritical that the EU is so keen on user privacy and allows TT to exist within it's borders. They can't allow data to be stored by any systematic authority that by definition will use that data against the person and state of EU.
throw0101a 6y ago
Probably because other (Western?) countries are much less worried about the links between business and government in America. The NSA secretly intercepted Cisco equipment to backdoor them: * https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/05/photos-of-an-nsa-upgrade-factory-show-cisco-router-getting-implant/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/05/photos-of-an-nsa... Can we say the same think about the links between Huawei and the Chinese government? The only notable case of coöperation that I can think of is RSA RNG: * https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-security-nsa-rsa/exclusive-nsa-infiltrated-rsa-security-more-deeply-than-thought-study-idUSBREA2U0TY20140331 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-security-nsa-rsa/excl... Though the US and Germans did own Crypto AG together for a while: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crypto_AG https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crypto_AG
zalkota 6y ago
Facebook isn’t been ran by a communism country with concentration camps?

At this point it's just hilarious how this issue in the name of national security for TikTok is of concern but Facebook is not similar concern for other countries.

leto_ii 6y ago

This is the privilege of being the only actual superpower in the world. Your national interest extends all over the world and other nations don't get to have a say in it. American control of the internet is a concern for other nations, and the ones that can do something about it (China, Russia) are working hard to become independent of it. Most nations however just get to pick what bubble they want to live in - the US one, the Chinese one, to a lesser extent the Russian one.

Arnt 6y ago
And others' interests do not extend? Anyway, I question the factualality of the superpower status. The US wasn't able to impose its will on even a minor warlord such as Mohammed Farrah Aidid. He stayed, the US soldiers withdrew.
- leto_ii 6y ago
  > And others' interests do not extend? Other countries simply don't have the power to project their interests globally. For example Iran doesn't assassinate top US generals with drones. I imagine they would like to, they just can't. If it ever became apparent that other countries were on track to developing tools that the US can't control, the US would simply strike preemptively (this applies to weapons, as well as economic matters - TikTok, Huawei etc.). > Anyway, I question the factualality of the superpower status. The US wasn't able to impose its will on even a minor warlord such as Mohammed Farrah Aidid. He stayed, the US soldiers withdrew. I don't know the case of Aidid specifically, so I can't comment on it. I do know however that if the US is interested enough in something to happen, that thing will happen almost certainly, almost anywhere. I can only assume that Somalia was not that important for US interests.
  - thomasahle 6y ago
    What you say is all true, but it is important to remember that the US diplomatic power is fsr more efficient than the brute force you allude to. If the US hadn't allowed NSA to spy on its allies, fewer of those allies would now be inclined to join with Huawei. If the US didn't have Guantanamo, fewer countries would block extradition of people of interest to the US. Sure, if you are a super power you can pretend might makes right, but it still comes with a cost.
    - christophilus 6y ago
      Agreed. And the costs add up. The US has been eroding it’s goodwill for a very long time. I wonder how long it is until the tipping point is reached. Dollar hegemony probably means there’s a bit of runway left.
    - leto_ii 6y ago
      I agree with your points. If things go the way they've been going over the past 4 yrs, I suspect that the US will end up ruling by force more and more. I also suspect that China will be allowed to carve out a sphere of strong influence in South-East Asia; this fact in turn will likely lead to a re-militarization of Japan. These are all really unfortunate developments and I hope that history will prove me wrong.
      - rangibaby 6y ago
        How is China going to carve that sphere of influence out? It's surrounded by nations that are wary of that exact thing happening (again). > this fact in turn will likely lead to a re-militarization of Japan. Japan already has a powerful military, with the capability of building nuclear weapons immediately. The Japanese have bad marketing, but following WWII they effectively stopped being chauvinist as a nation.
        leto_ii 6y ago
        > How is China going to carve that sphere of influence out? Among other things, my expectation is that Taiwan will go the way of HK. South Korea may at some point reunite with NK and enter the Chinese sphere of influence more strongly. South East Asian nations are already strongly influenced by China. > Japan already has a powerful military They still have a pacifist constitution, I think [1]. > following WWII they effectively stopped being chauvinist as a nation The definition of chauvinism is vague and I think it would be unproductive to enter a debate about which nation is/isn't chauvinistic. In my view a form of potential chauvinism is built into any nation state. Nation states are a relatively modern fiction that depends to a certain extent on the belief that there is a 'we' that is different and sometimes better than 'them'. However, in my previous comment I didn't mean to imply that Japanese imperial ambitions will be reignited. Simply that Japan will feel threatened by Chinese power and, unlike other nations in the region, will be more likely to strongly oppose that power, rather than accommodate it. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_9_of_the_Japanese_Constitution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_9_of_the_Japanese_Cons...

abc-xyz 6y ago

Not sure why you’d think Facebook isn’t a national security concern for other countries. I mean in China they outright banned Facebook, and EU have ordered Facebook (and others) to restrict data sent from EU to US. The only thing unique about this case is the fact that USA might ban the app, which is fair considering China does the same to US tech companies.

rfoo 6y ago
> they outright banned Facebook For a different (and more stupid) reason though. It's not like CCP banned Facebook for sending home data, they banned Facebook for not being able to comply to censorship requirements. iCloud would be a better example here.
- wokwokwok 6y ago
  Sure; but it’s an almost irrelevant detail. The point being made is that government intervention is a given in China at every level. You can argue either way on if it’s “right” for the US to be doing it too, but it’s a bit rich to make a song and dance about how unfair it is under the circumstances. I’m 100% happy to agree governments in general, should keep out of this stuff, but that’s not the world we live in, or have lived in, for a very long time... /shrug It sucks, but it’s kind of hard to be sympathetic, honestly. You reap what you sow.
ezconnect 6y ago
What's unique about this is the US government is telling them to sell it to a US company. It would have been normal to just outright ban it for security reasons the sell it or get ban part is the scary part.
- tatersolid 6y ago
  > What's unique about this is the US government is telling them to sell it to a US company This is exactly what China does to foreign companies who wish to operate in China. The US is simply pursuing a model of reciprocal trade protections and tariffs.

wp381640 6y ago

Facebook is blocked in China

throw665439 6y ago
Only because Facebook does not follow China’s censorship and data storage laws.
- unicornfinder 6y ago
  Actually I don't believe that's the real reason. I think Facebook would be more than happy to co-operate. For China, the problem with Facebook isn't control or censorship, but rather providing protectionism for their own brands, i.e. WeChat.
  - wp381640 6y ago
    That's exactly right. Anybody who has been at a moderately successful startup knows all too well the step where a Chinese company will approach you to "partner"[0] into the Chinese market [0] Where "partner" means - setup a local JP we control and give us your IP and you will own a "share" (but good luck with the local courts when things go wrong!)
    - AmericanChopper 6y ago
      The fact that anybody could point fingers at the US for making it difficult for China to do business here is absurd. China is one of the most hostile protectionist economies. The US has never done anything that even approaches how difficult it is for a foreign business to trade in China. I’m quite a strong advocate for free trade. But if a country has locked you out of their market, I don’t think you should give them easy access to yours.
      - wombatmobile 6y ago
        6 Businesses with Success in China (and How They Did It) https://blog.btrax.com/6-businesses-with-success-in-china-and-how-they-did-it/ https://blog.btrax.com/6-businesses-with-success-in-china-an...

iamnotarobotman 6y ago

Facebook has been banned in China since 2009. (11 years ago)

dustinmoris 6y ago

Agreed. It's the same irony around the fears of Huawei's 5G, whilst the entire world IT is run on operating systems owned by US companies. I can't remember the last time China tried to assassinate a country leader in South America, or a country which has been bombed by Chinese drones, or a WikiLeaks document which proved that China is spying on the entire world. On the other hand... I genuinely can't remember a single year where the US didn't bomb a country..

Craighead 6y ago
But you do remember the last time they participated in genocide, and social credit systems that target mentally ill students in classrooms?
mam2 6y ago
Yeah china is such a nice country, not at all imperialistic, and friendly to our values.
- dang 6y ago
  Please stop posting unsubstantive and/or flamebait comments to HN. We've had to ask you this more than once already. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - mam2 6y ago
    This is not unsubstantiative. It's called reframing the person's point in a new light, and it's valid debating technique, although indeed it often points out stupid parts in the other persons view points. John steward did it all the time in his show. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPgZfhnCAdI&feature=youtu.be&t=410 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPgZfhnCAdI&feature=youtu.be...
manigandham 6y ago
China has far greater internal issues of oppression and authoritarianism. It also meddles in foreign affairs around the world but you probably don't hear about it. See Africa and the belt-and-road initiative for some details on the damage done.

mrtksn 6y ago

It is a concern but until Trump the school of thought was that the right of free enterprise should be preserved and free markets will take care of it eventually, so other US friendly countries(EU especially) introduced data protection regulations instead of outright banning of having a country's communications pass through other country systems. Now that the USA is no longer pushing for global open markets but champions protectionism, you can be sure that other countries are itching to ban US companies. If the TikTok ban materialises, you can be sure that all other countries will follow and an era of global US internet companies will come to an end. Maybe giants like FB or Google will be able to set up local versions and keep their markets but there will be no longer companies that were started by few young people that grew to be global products because due to "national security" they will have to set up legal entities in each country and have their business&tech tuned for each markets regulations. Some will require you to keep certain data and give it to the government or else... others will prefer to have their cronies run this and will make sure that you won't succeed in that market. You thought GDPR is too restrictive? That was actually an attempt to keep global free market alive when fixing the associated national security risks but since USA seems to be choosing the Chinese approach of banning companies instead of regulating them, you can expect that GDPR will loose relevance as EU & others will also look into banning foreign internet companies. The annoying cookie pop-up might not made internet businesses change their behaviour but it definitely built an awareness that companies are tracking you. Now it will be quite easy to convince the population that for national security reasons FB/Google and others should be banned, and look even the USA is not allowing foreigners why should we? If the USA is banning apps and websites, obviously we can do it too without becoming totalitarian dictatorships like China, Russia, Cuba or DPRK. I am baffled why the USA choose to trash its global leader position here.

TAForObvReasons 6y ago
There's a good chance Zuckerberg convinced Trump to take action on TikTok: https://www.wsj.com/articles/facebook-ceo-mark-zuckerberg-stoked-washingtons-fears-about-tiktok-11598223133 https://www.wsj.com/articles/facebook-ceo-mark-zuckerberg-st...
- 6y ago

thotsBgone 6y ago

America is imperfect, but China is evil. They are perpetrating a literal holocaust right now. The double standard is merited.

dang 6y ago
Please do not take HN threads into nationalistic flamewar, or any flamewar. It's not what this site is for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- thotsBgone 6y ago
  Denouncing an objectively evil and racist nationalistic gov't is not flaming.

Bayart 6y ago

The US government doesn't have nearly the amount of control or integration the Chinese have with their companies. It's simply not comparable. And I say that as a European who wants FB neutered.

angio 6y ago
Dosen't the CLOUD Act mean that the US government has access to all data owned by American companies, even if the data is physically outside the US?
PeterStuer 6y ago
It is irrelevant whether it is the government that controls the enterprises or the enterprises that control the government when the symbiotic entanglement runs that deep as is the case in both the US and China.
- sonotathrowaway 6y ago
  I don’t ever remember anyone alleging the United States used the TAO to steal trade secrets to give to American corporations, nor do I ever recall them hacking other countries to gain advantages in trade negotiations. If you’d like to paint them as equally entwined, please cite your sources.
  - PeterStuer 6y ago
    It's pretty systemic, not an exception. Just of the top of my head. "In 1999, Enercon, a German company and leading manufacturer of wind energy equipment, developed a breakthrough generator for wind turbines. After applying for a US patent, it had learned that Kenetech, an American rival, had submitted an almost identical patent application shortly before. By the statement of a former NSA employee, it was later discovered that the NSA had secretly intercepted and monitored Enercon's data communications and conference calls and passed information regarding the new generator to Kenetech. As German intelligence services are forbidden from engaging in industrial or economic espionage, German companies are frequently complaining that this leaves them defenceless against industrial espionage from the United States. According to Wolfgang Hoffmann, a former manager at Bayer, German intelligence services are aware which companies are being targeted by US intelligence agencies, but refuse to inform the companies involved." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON#Examples_of_industrial_espionage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON#Examples_of_industrial...

quantummkv 6y ago

It's not the US that is engaged in wars with all of it's neighbors over capturing territory. China is. For all those countries like Japan, Taiwan, India, etc, US is not a concern. China is the immediate threat. And China will not shy away from using all of it's assets in this case. The mandatory Party Commissar in every organization will ensure that the assets comply.

pjmlp 6y ago
Yeah they are just responsible for the butterfly effect that gave us ISIS.

guywhocodes 6y ago

Exciting you mean! We could enter a phase of total regional lockdown, essentially the only path as I see it for reasonable privacy standards in smartphones. And we will know we got reasonable privacy in apps when websites like don't use every dark pattern in the book to push you to the app.

jariel 6y ago

They are not very comparable. The CCP has an agency within about 85% of Chinese firms, (soon 100%) to ensure companies adhere to the CCP agenda - they actively monitor, censor and promote state propaganda as well as track every citizen for potential wrong doing. Not only, the CCP will use these companies and all the information gathered for whatever use it sees fit i.e. theft, spycraft etc.. Xi can do whatever he wants, when he wants, to whomever, without any material oversight. Imagine if Trump could dig into the social media records of anyone in America - and a few billion around the world, willy nilly, at will, and do whatever he wants with that information? Obviously China faces repercussions for serious and obvious 'breaches' but they can avoid most of that if it's hidden. In the US, you generally have to commit some kind of crime or do something noteworthy to attract the ire of the authorities, after which a warrant must be issued for said person's information to be looked at - which is reasonable. There is somewhat of a problem in that the US doesn't care that much about the privacy of non-citizens, in which case, a photo of you smoking pot could get you barred from entry into the US without much oversight. This should be updated and regulated for sure - and non-American countries should either require 'foreign storage of data' or for reciprocity in terms of the information that can be looked at. I don't like Trump, but his push on TT has merit. What he should do is enact legislation that applies universally so that it's not directed in a politicized manner at a single company wherein there is a conflict of interest (TT users ganged together to help ruin his GOP convention - I don't think CCP had anything to do with it, but surely he's angry and wants personal revenge). It's hugely hypocritical that the EU is so keen on user privacy and allows TT to exist within it's borders. They can't allow data to be stored by any systematic authority that by definition will use that data against the person and state of EU.

throw0101a 6y ago

Probably because other (Western?) countries are much less worried about the links between business and government in America. The NSA secretly intercepted Cisco equipment to backdoor them: * https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/05/photos-of-an-nsa-upgrade-factory-show-cisco-router-getting-implant/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/05/photos-of-an-nsa... Can we say the same think about the links between Huawei and the Chinese government? The only notable case of coöperation that I can think of is RSA RNG: * https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-security-nsa-rsa/exclusive-nsa-infiltrated-rsa-security-more-deeply-than-thought-study-idUSBREA2U0TY20140331 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-security-nsa-rsa/excl... Though the US and Germans did own Crypto AG together for a while: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crypto_AG https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crypto_AG

zalkota 6y ago

Facebook isn’t been ran by a communism country with concentration camps?