8 ms·

Long-term stress is the default mode of the 21st century

107 points by yorkiebar 6y ago

LatteLazy 6y ago
We support ever more people not working. That means workers have to work harder for a smaller share. So workers suffer long term stress. So more of them drop out of work and the problem gets worse...
- tomtompl 6y ago
  > That means workers have to work harder for a smaller share what if the "whole" is not const? Does it necessarily mean that the share is smaller? I'm not convinced
- robjan 6y ago
  We are slowly automating jobs out of existence and increasing efficiency of existing processes. Nothing to do with everyone burning out.
  - LatteLazy 6y ago
    You have 3 people working an 8h day. You automate away half that work. So 3 people are now applying for 1.5 jobs. You give one of them the job and he has to work 12h a day. The other two are unemployed. Everyone is stressed, 2 people for lack of money, 1 for exhaustion and fear he'll lose his job to the other two if he doesn't give it 110%. Kaynes thought we'd keep all three workers for 4h a day and pay them more for the privilege of working part time. But that isn't how markets work. And that's the problem we now face.
- prower 6y ago
  - If people are overworked and the employer can get away by burning out every employee, then the unions are not doing their job properly. - If less people are required to do the same amount of work, it means you're automating sucessfully, and that you should tax automation to compensate. Having an automated robot/script working 24/7 shouldn't relieve the company from its inherent social responsibilities. - If the above is not happening, the people in charge are failing their job or acting in bad faith, and should be replaced and held responsible in either case.
  - LatteLazy 6y ago
    You look at this like a bug to be fixed. But it's actually a feature. If you're not a (would be) worker, and most people aren't (let alone the groups our political system empowers) then the harder those workers work and the less they're paid and the more they're afraid they'll lose their jobs the better! 50 years of rising income taxes, higher student fees, reduced job security, union decline, reduced services for working people etc etc etc are the other side of the coin to rising asset prices and ever higher subsidies for land owners.
systemvoltage 6y ago
I’ve never been satisfied with the definition of stress. My dad always said “If things are going good, that means you’re not trying.” How do you reconcile normal challenges and hardships in life with what is defined as “stress”? In some ways, life without stress is boring and uneventful. At the same time stress is a negative thing that affects your health. It’s not clear to me what is defined as stress - I’ve read number of medical definitions and they all sound vague and unsatisfactory.
- kernel_pancake 6y ago
  Can’t one define ‘useful’ and ‘useless’ stress? For example, stress experienced when learning something challenging would be useful stress, while ruminating about issues we have no control over would be useless stress.
  - kiba 6y ago
    I never feel stressed about a really annoying and thorny programming problem, no matter how frustrating it is or seemly insurmountable it is. Ditto for learning anything new. Yet, I would feel stressed about grades and passing, which is entirely different from actual mastery.
    - deathtrader666 6y ago
      A difficult programming problem in isolation is something I, too, enjoy. There's no enjoyment though when the project manager (any other exec) demands that it be solved within a very short time. This is no time for eustress, when I'm being asked for status updates twice a day for 5 days.
  - function_seven 6y ago
    I’ll give it a shot. Useful stress is something you can relieve through action. You study and learn the thing, and pass the test. Or you have that difficult conversation. Once you go through it, you feel a sense of pride and accomplishment (sorry). Useless stress is what you feel when you’ve think you’re going to lose your job, or a loved one is sick, or a brush fire is burning a mile away from your house. It’s out of your control and the stress you’re under can’t be harnessed in a useful way. It just sucks.
Zenst 6y ago
There is physical and emotional stress, the levels of physical stress upon the body has in this century become less so due to automation and working conditions/standards. Though whilst we have reduced physical stress, we have offset that with emotional stress. One which for some they manage to reduce via going to the gym, exercising and other forms of physical stress.
madaxe_again 6y ago
Existential dread is like the background radiation of stress for this era - the constant worry that the climate will change more rapidly than anticipated, that reified systems will collapse, that unrest and chaos will spread. Add to that the expectation of constant availability and instantaneous response, the expectation of unmitigated success, the expectation of having a soaring career and being a good parent and impressing your (global) peers and presenting a flawless life in every aspect. Add to that the faceless systemisation of processes and functions that once had a human face (getting a loan, buying a home, screening for employment, the passing of judgment), and the dehumanisation of human affairs. It honestly amazes me that humans are so far, en masse, proving relatively resilient under this relentless cudgelling, but I wonder how long it can last. Not much longer, I fear.
- gambiting 6y ago
  While all of the things that you listed are real and actual reasons to be stressed out, it's not like life was less stressful in the past. Just thinking about the history of my own country, your average Pole in the 20th century had to worry 1) whether they can even speak their own language as under Prussian-Russian-Austrian occupation it wasn't allowed under harsh punishment, you could only learn Polish history and language in hiding 2) The restoration of independence after WW1 came with reshuffling of land ownership, so you might have had to abandon all your posessions to move somewhere else 3) general shitty conditions all the way until WW2 4) WW2, 2.4 million Poles killed because they were "the wrong race" and just happened to be in an attractive geopolitical location 5) WW2 ends, but we get 40 years of communism instead. Now your daily worries include whether you get a government-assigned job on the other side of the country so you don't get to see your family, and secret police coming to disappear you for saying the wrong thing at the wrong time. General shitty conditions unless you follow the party line. In comparison to that, life in the 21st century is "honey and mead" as they say. Yeah sure young people struggle with climate change and buying a house like everyone else, but it's not like the lives of their ancestors were any less stressful(and most likely more so).
  - Mediterraneo10 6y ago
    > your average Pole in the 20th century had to worry whether they can even speak their own language as under Prussian-Russian-Austrian occupation it wasn't allowed under harsh punishment, you could only learn Polish history and language in hiding This is an incredible overexaggeration. Polish was the language spoken on an everyday basis by the vast majority of Poles during the 19th century. It was the language that would ordinarily be used in the marketplace or shop or when talking with one’s Roman Catholic priest and fellow parishioners. It was the language that laborers spoke to each other all day every day at work. Yes, Polish was not a prestige language; official usage and the intelligentsia functioned in Russian or German. And there was definitely heavy censorship of publications during the Tsarist era which required an underground Polish-language education system to teach Polish nationalist history and Polish as a literary language, but the masses weren’t banned from speaking their native tongue.
mg 6y ago
I wonder if that is only the case for the 21st century. Buddhists have been looking at how to live an awesome life for thousands of years now. And the main theme they have been tackling right from the start was how to not worry and reach calmness of the mind.
scottlocklin 6y ago
Yeah, no. While it's true that modern upper middle class anglosphere urbanites torture themselves with completely optional neurotic bullshit, most of the rest of the world is pretty relaxed and may even experience a higher standard of living.
- abnercoimbre 6y ago
  I have family members who benefit from my financial support thanks to my being a tortured neurotic modern urbanite. I won't get any of the "big bucks" in the US if I unplug or relax too much, now will I?
  - scottlocklin 6y ago
    If you think checking in on your phone 200 times a day and worrying about everything your ipotato tells you to worry about is helping feed your family: whatever works for you, pal. That sort of mentality never worked for me.
- mensetmanusman 6y ago
  Ya, it’s interesting how materially ‘poor’ countries have citizens with more enjoyable lives (by any subjective measure, because you can’t objectively measure how someone is feeling).
zuhayeer 6y ago
"The very structures, processes which keep the lights on, our economies running and our governments functioning create the conditions which remove people from experiencing nature, the unexpected joy of boredom and developing strong social and community bonds." This reminded me of Maker's Schedule vs Manager's Schedule and how this is largely a result of packing our calendars into hour to hour increments Monday - Friday stuck in this rotisserie motion. Empty your calendar and see how you can experience "the unexpected joy of boredom" and randomness – maybe you'll visit the beach tomorrow and still get more done in a half day than you do in a week. http://www.paulgraham.com/makersschedule.html http://www.paulgraham.com/makersschedule.html
- arvinsim 6y ago
  I made the mistake of applying the hourly schedule to my personal life and it's horrible. I had to always update my calendar seems things never go as planned. I also was having anxiety even in my off days since I feel that I have to "hit" the schedules planned out in my calendar.
  - ChrisLTD 6y ago
    I’ve tried and backed off the same idea. Funny enough, I also recently read that Cal Newport strictly advises people not to use time blocking for their after work schedules for similar reasons.
gadders 6y ago
I would have thought that stress levels would be worse in the - say - 18th Century - widespread disease risk, no pain relief for surgery, realistic prospect of starvation, wars etc etc. Or perhaps people had a more fatalistic attitude? Yes, you have long term stress in the 21st century, but for those of us lucky enough to live in the 1st World, it's not usually existential stress.
cafard 6y ago
Ah, the good old 20th Century. Two massively destructive world wars. Perfectly awful working conditions for those in heavy industry for at least the first third. Appalling conditions in Russia and China for a great deal of it. Famines and mass dislocations in the Indian subcontinent.
- finnthehuman 6y ago
  It's possible the subjective experience could be harder for those living now, even as the objective one has gotten better. Society doesn't teach coping well; and while it's still rare there are growing segments that actively disparage the idea of coping when the stressor is something they want "fixed." Furthermore most media and advertising rely on stirring up disquiet to grow their audience.
carterklein13 6y ago
Is it the default mode of the 21st century, or is the 21st century just the first century we've done extensive research into stress psychology (or at least, extensive research not for the sake of confirming a narrative/bias)?

107 points by yorkiebar 6y ago

We support ever more people not working. That means workers have to work harder for a smaller share. So workers suffer long term stress. So more of them drop out of work and the problem gets worse...

tomtompl 6y ago
> That means workers have to work harder for a smaller share what if the "whole" is not const? Does it necessarily mean that the share is smaller? I'm not convinced
robjan 6y ago
We are slowly automating jobs out of existence and increasing efficiency of existing processes. Nothing to do with everyone burning out.
- LatteLazy 6y ago
  You have 3 people working an 8h day. You automate away half that work. So 3 people are now applying for 1.5 jobs. You give one of them the job and he has to work 12h a day. The other two are unemployed. Everyone is stressed, 2 people for lack of money, 1 for exhaustion and fear he'll lose his job to the other two if he doesn't give it 110%. Kaynes thought we'd keep all three workers for 4h a day and pay them more for the privilege of working part time. But that isn't how markets work. And that's the problem we now face.
prower 6y ago
- If people are overworked and the employer can get away by burning out every employee, then the unions are not doing their job properly. - If less people are required to do the same amount of work, it means you're automating sucessfully, and that you should tax automation to compensate. Having an automated robot/script working 24/7 shouldn't relieve the company from its inherent social responsibilities. - If the above is not happening, the people in charge are failing their job or acting in bad faith, and should be replaced and held responsible in either case.
- LatteLazy 6y ago
  You look at this like a bug to be fixed. But it's actually a feature. If you're not a (would be) worker, and most people aren't (let alone the groups our political system empowers) then the harder those workers work and the less they're paid and the more they're afraid they'll lose their jobs the better! 50 years of rising income taxes, higher student fees, reduced job security, union decline, reduced services for working people etc etc etc are the other side of the coin to rising asset prices and ever higher subsidies for land owners.

systemvoltage 6y ago

I’ve never been satisfied with the definition of stress. My dad always said “If things are going good, that means you’re not trying.” How do you reconcile normal challenges and hardships in life with what is defined as “stress”? In some ways, life without stress is boring and uneventful. At the same time stress is a negative thing that affects your health. It’s not clear to me what is defined as stress - I’ve read number of medical definitions and they all sound vague and unsatisfactory.

kernel_pancake 6y ago
Can’t one define ‘useful’ and ‘useless’ stress? For example, stress experienced when learning something challenging would be useful stress, while ruminating about issues we have no control over would be useless stress.
- kiba 6y ago
  I never feel stressed about a really annoying and thorny programming problem, no matter how frustrating it is or seemly insurmountable it is. Ditto for learning anything new. Yet, I would feel stressed about grades and passing, which is entirely different from actual mastery.
  - deathtrader666 6y ago
    A difficult programming problem in isolation is something I, too, enjoy. There's no enjoyment though when the project manager (any other exec) demands that it be solved within a very short time. This is no time for eustress, when I'm being asked for status updates twice a day for 5 days.
- function_seven 6y ago
  I’ll give it a shot. Useful stress is something you can relieve through action. You study and learn the thing, and pass the test. Or you have that difficult conversation. Once you go through it, you feel a sense of pride and accomplishment (sorry). Useless stress is what you feel when you’ve think you’re going to lose your job, or a loved one is sick, or a brush fire is burning a mile away from your house. It’s out of your control and the stress you’re under can’t be harnessed in a useful way. It just sucks.

Zenst 6y ago

There is physical and emotional stress, the levels of physical stress upon the body has in this century become less so due to automation and working conditions/standards. Though whilst we have reduced physical stress, we have offset that with emotional stress. One which for some they manage to reduce via going to the gym, exercising and other forms of physical stress.

madaxe_again 6y ago

Existential dread is like the background radiation of stress for this era - the constant worry that the climate will change more rapidly than anticipated, that reified systems will collapse, that unrest and chaos will spread. Add to that the expectation of constant availability and instantaneous response, the expectation of unmitigated success, the expectation of having a soaring career and being a good parent and impressing your (global) peers and presenting a flawless life in every aspect. Add to that the faceless systemisation of processes and functions that once had a human face (getting a loan, buying a home, screening for employment, the passing of judgment), and the dehumanisation of human affairs. It honestly amazes me that humans are so far, en masse, proving relatively resilient under this relentless cudgelling, but I wonder how long it can last. Not much longer, I fear.

gambiting 6y ago
While all of the things that you listed are real and actual reasons to be stressed out, it's not like life was less stressful in the past. Just thinking about the history of my own country, your average Pole in the 20th century had to worry 1) whether they can even speak their own language as under Prussian-Russian-Austrian occupation it wasn't allowed under harsh punishment, you could only learn Polish history and language in hiding 2) The restoration of independence after WW1 came with reshuffling of land ownership, so you might have had to abandon all your posessions to move somewhere else 3) general shitty conditions all the way until WW2 4) WW2, 2.4 million Poles killed because they were "the wrong race" and just happened to be in an attractive geopolitical location 5) WW2 ends, but we get 40 years of communism instead. Now your daily worries include whether you get a government-assigned job on the other side of the country so you don't get to see your family, and secret police coming to disappear you for saying the wrong thing at the wrong time. General shitty conditions unless you follow the party line. In comparison to that, life in the 21st century is "honey and mead" as they say. Yeah sure young people struggle with climate change and buying a house like everyone else, but it's not like the lives of their ancestors were any less stressful(and most likely more so).
- Mediterraneo10 6y ago
  > your average Pole in the 20th century had to worry whether they can even speak their own language as under Prussian-Russian-Austrian occupation it wasn't allowed under harsh punishment, you could only learn Polish history and language in hiding This is an incredible overexaggeration. Polish was the language spoken on an everyday basis by the vast majority of Poles during the 19th century. It was the language that would ordinarily be used in the marketplace or shop or when talking with one’s Roman Catholic priest and fellow parishioners. It was the language that laborers spoke to each other all day every day at work. Yes, Polish was not a prestige language; official usage and the intelligentsia functioned in Russian or German. And there was definitely heavy censorship of publications during the Tsarist era which required an underground Polish-language education system to teach Polish nationalist history and Polish as a literary language, but the masses weren’t banned from speaking their native tongue.

mg 6y ago

I wonder if that is only the case for the 21st century. Buddhists have been looking at how to live an awesome life for thousands of years now. And the main theme they have been tackling right from the start was how to not worry and reach calmness of the mind.

scottlocklin 6y ago

Yeah, no. While it's true that modern upper middle class anglosphere urbanites torture themselves with completely optional neurotic bullshit, most of the rest of the world is pretty relaxed and may even experience a higher standard of living.

abnercoimbre 6y ago
I have family members who benefit from my financial support thanks to my being a tortured neurotic modern urbanite. I won't get any of the "big bucks" in the US if I unplug or relax too much, now will I?
- scottlocklin 6y ago
  If you think checking in on your phone 200 times a day and worrying about everything your ipotato tells you to worry about is helping feed your family: whatever works for you, pal. That sort of mentality never worked for me.
mensetmanusman 6y ago
Ya, it’s interesting how materially ‘poor’ countries have citizens with more enjoyable lives (by any subjective measure, because you can’t objectively measure how someone is feeling).

zuhayeer 6y ago

"The very structures, processes which keep the lights on, our economies running and our governments functioning create the conditions which remove people from experiencing nature, the unexpected joy of boredom and developing strong social and community bonds." This reminded me of Maker's Schedule vs Manager's Schedule and how this is largely a result of packing our calendars into hour to hour increments Monday - Friday stuck in this rotisserie motion. Empty your calendar and see how you can experience "the unexpected joy of boredom" and randomness – maybe you'll visit the beach tomorrow and still get more done in a half day than you do in a week. http://www.paulgraham.com/makersschedule.html http://www.paulgraham.com/makersschedule.html

arvinsim 6y ago
I made the mistake of applying the hourly schedule to my personal life and it's horrible. I had to always update my calendar seems things never go as planned. I also was having anxiety even in my off days since I feel that I have to "hit" the schedules planned out in my calendar.
- ChrisLTD 6y ago
  I’ve tried and backed off the same idea. Funny enough, I also recently read that Cal Newport strictly advises people not to use time blocking for their after work schedules for similar reasons.

gadders 6y ago

I would have thought that stress levels would be worse in the - say - 18th Century - widespread disease risk, no pain relief for surgery, realistic prospect of starvation, wars etc etc. Or perhaps people had a more fatalistic attitude? Yes, you have long term stress in the 21st century, but for those of us lucky enough to live in the 1st World, it's not usually existential stress.

cafard 6y ago

Ah, the good old 20th Century. Two massively destructive world wars. Perfectly awful working conditions for those in heavy industry for at least the first third. Appalling conditions in Russia and China for a great deal of it. Famines and mass dislocations in the Indian subcontinent.

finnthehuman 6y ago
It's possible the subjective experience could be harder for those living now, even as the objective one has gotten better. Society doesn't teach coping well; and while it's still rare there are growing segments that actively disparage the idea of coping when the stressor is something they want "fixed." Furthermore most media and advertising rely on stirring up disquiet to grow their audience.

carterklein13 6y ago

Is it the default mode of the 21st century, or is the 21st century just the first century we've done extensive research into stress psychology (or at least, extensive research not for the sake of confirming a narrative/bias)?