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NVIDIA’s hardware works on x86, PowerPC, and ARM platforms. Many of their AI libraries/tools are in fact open source. They stand to be a force that could prop

NVIDIA’s hardware works on x86, PowerPC, and ARM platforms. Many of their AI libraries/tools are in fact open source. They stand to be a force that could propel ARM’s strength in data center and desktop computing. For some reason you’re okay with the current x86 duopoly held by AMD and Intel, both who have their own destiny over CPUs and GPUs. The HN crowd is incredibly biased against certain companies. Why not look at some of the potential bright sides to this for a more nuanced and balanced opinion?

ianai 6y ago
Yes I wonder the same thing about the sentiment against nvidia. It’s be helpful if there were some wiki about things they’ve killed or instances they’ve acted against foss systems.
- mixmastamyk 6y ago
  Linus famously gave them the middle-finger.
  - paulmd 6y ago
    "linus went on a hyperbolic rant" isn't sufficient evidence for anything. linus is a hyperbolic jerk (as he admitted himself for a few months before resuming his hyperbolic ways) who is increasingly out of touch with anything outside the direct sphere of his projects. Like his misguided and completely unnecessary rants about ZFS or AVX. if there are technical merits to discuss you can post those instead of just appealing to linus' hyperbole. (I won't even say "appeal to authority" because that's not what you're appealing to. You're literally appealing to his middle finger.)
    - andrewprock 6y ago
      The notion that the maintainer if Linux has a narrow focus role that isn't capable of advocating and serving the broader community is belied by the fact that Linux has grown from being a niche hobbyist platform to the de facto cloud standard OS.
      - paulmd 6y ago
        https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/01/linus-torvalds-zfs-statements-arent-right-heres-the-straight-dope/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/01/linus-torvalds-zfs-s... https://www.zdnet.com/article/linus-torvalds-i-hope-intels-avx-512-dies-a-painful-death/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/linus-torvalds-i-hope-intels-a... /shrug. The guy can't keep from popping off with obviously false statements about things he knows nothing about. What exactly do you want me to say? Yes, he's been a good manager for the linux kernel, but he is self-admittedly hyperbolic and statements like these show that he really doesn't have an issue running his mouth about things that he really doesn't understand. It is the old problem with software engineers: they think expertise in one field or one area makes them a certified supergenius with relevant input in completely unrelated areas. I can't count how many times I've seen someone on HN suggest One Weird Trick To Solve Hard Problems in [aerospace/materials sciences/etc]. Linus suffers from the same thing. His experiences with NVIDIA are probably relevant, and if so we can discuss that, but the fact that he gave someone the middle finger in a Q+A session is not. That's just Linus being an asshole. (and him being a long-term successful project manager doesn't make him not an asshole either. Jensen's an asshole and he's one of the most successful tech CEOs of all time. Linus doesn't mince words and we should do the same - he's an asshole on a professional level, the "I'm just being blunt!" schtick is just a nice dressing for what would in any other setting be described as a textbook toxic work environment, and his defenses are textbook "haha it's just locker room talk/we're all friends here" excuses that people causing toxic work environment are wont to make. He knows it, he said he'd tone it down, that lasted about a month and he's back to hyperbolic rants about things he doesn't really understand... like ZFS and AVX. But hey I guess they're not directed at people this time.) Again, if he's got relevant technical input we can discuss that but "linus gives the middle finger!!!!" is not the last word on the topic.
        andrewprock 6y ago
        I don't take issue with the fact that Linus' behavior is problematic.
    - mixmastamyk 6y ago
      A little defensive, no? I trust his judgement more than Mr. Random on the internets.
    - arp242 6y ago
      He just responded to a complaint that nVidia hardware wasn't working with "nVidia is the worst company we've dealt with". I don't think that's "out of touch", it's pretty much the kind of stuff his job description entails. If you don't like his style, fair enough, but if the leader of a project says "company X is the worst company we deal with" then that doesn't inspire a whole lot of confidence.
      - paulmd 6y ago
        AFAIK the debate was mostly settled by NVIDIA submitting their own EGLStreams backend for Wayland (that promptly exposed a bunch of Wayland bugs). So difficult to work with, that NVIDIA, asking to do something different and then submitting their own code to implement it! https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=EGLStreams-Merged-KWin-5.16 https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=EGLStrea... AFAIK it also ended up being literally a couple thousand lines of code, not some massive endeavor, so the Wayland guys don’t come off looking real great, looks like they have their own Not Invented Here syndrome and certainly a lot of generalized hostility towards NVIDIA. Like Torvalds, I'll be blunt, my experience is that a lot of people just know NVIDIA is evil because of these dozens of little scandals they’ve drummed up, and they almost all fall apart when you look into them, but people just fall back on asserting that NVIDIA must be up to something because of these 27 other things (that also fall apart when you poke them a bit). It is super trendy to hate on NVIDIA in the same way it’s super trendy to hate on Apple or Intel. Example: everyone used to bitch and moan about G-Sync, the biggest innovation in gaming in 10 years. Oh, it's this proprietary standard, it's using a proprietary module, why are they doing this, why don't they support the Adaptive Sync standard? Well, at the time they started doing it, Adaptive Sync was a draft standard for power-saving in laptops that had languished for years, there was no impetus to push the standard through, there were no monitors that supported it, and no real push to implement monitors either. Why take 10 years to get things through a standards group when you can just take a FPGA and do it yourself? And once you've done all that engineering work, are you going to give it away for free? Back in 2016 I outright said that sooner or later NVIDIA would have to support Adaptive Sync or else lose the home theater market/etc as consoles gained support. People told me I was loony, "NVIDIA'S just not that kind of company", etc. Well, turns out they were that kind of company, weren't they? Turns out people were mostly mad that... NVIDIA didn't immediately give all their engineering work away for free. The GPP is the only thing I’ve seen that really stank and they backed off that when they saw the reaction. Other than that they are mostly guilty of... using a software license you don’t like. It says a lot about the success of copyleft that anyone developing software with a proprietary license is automatically suspect. The truth is that NVIDIA, while proprietary, does a huge amount of really great engineering in novel areas that HNers would really applaud if it were any other company. Going and making your own monitor from scratch with a FPGA so you can implement a game-changing technology is exactly the kind of go-getter attitude that this site is supposed to embody. Variable refresh rate/GSync is a game changer. DLSS 2.0 is a game changer. Raytracing is a game changer. And you have NVIDIA to thank for all of those, "proprietary" and all. They would not exist today without NVIDIA, AMD or Intel would not have independently pushed to develop those, even though they do have open-source drivers. What a conundrum.
- WrtCdEvrydy 6y ago
  Nvidia does not publish drivers, only binary blobs. You generally have to wrap those and use them while not being foss-compatible.
LanternLight83 6y ago
There are good points on both sides; as a Linux user, I feel the effects of their proprietary drivers and uncooperative approach, while I can also appreciate that they've managed to work with the Gnome and KDE project to have some support under Wayland, and the contributions they've made to the machine learning communities. Ad a whole, I do think that the former outweighs the latter, and loath the acquisition, but do think that the resources they're packing will bring ARM to new heights for the majority users.
- endgame 6y ago
  https://drewdevault.com/2017/10/26/Fuck-you-nvidia.html https://drewdevault.com/2017/10/26/Fuck-you-nvidia.html You mean this Weyland "support"?
  - selectodude 6y ago
    "October 26, 2017" I'm not coming out and saying it's gotten significantly better, but that is a three year old article and Nvidia-wayland does work on KDE and Gnome.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - timidger 6y ago
      That's because they implemented egl streams, nothing has changed majorly since then. There's been a lot of talk, but no action towards unification. The ball is entirely in Nvidia's court and they continue to work together on this.
  - CountSessine 6y ago
    The funny thing about GBM vs EGLStreams, though, based on everything I’ve read online, is that there’s broad agreement that EGLStreams is the technically superior approach - and that the reason it’s been rejected by the Linux graphics devs is GBM, while inferior, has broad hardware vendor support. Apparently very few GPU vendors outside the big 3 had decent EGl implementations.
throwaway2048 6y ago
The OP said nothing about being ok with the x86 duopoly. Its possible to dislike two things at once, its also possible to be wary of new developments that give much more market power to a notoriously uncooperative and closed company.
dheera 6y ago
> The HN crowd is incredibly biased against certain companies. No kidding, regarding the HN crowd. -- every time I post a comment criticizing Apple's monopoly and policies I get downvoted to oblivion, and I'd say that some of the things they do e.g. on the Apple store and proprietary hardware/software combinations are far more egregious than anything Nvidia has ever done. The HN algorithm basically encourages an echo chamber of people who gang up and downvote/flag others who don't agree with the gang opinion. (Psst ... If you see this comment disappear after a while, it's probably because the same Apple fanboys found this comment and decided to hammer it down again.)
- barbecue_sauce 6y ago
  What's the point of pretending that people don't know you will get downvoted for holding an unpopular opinion? It's tautological.
- Shared404 6y ago
  Haven't looked at the rest of your posts, but if this gets flagged, it's probably from this: [Edit: I disagree with my past self of having put this comment here. This is something that if one feels that they notice, they should probably comment on. Leaving it here for clarity's sake] > The HN algorithm basically encourages an echo chamber of people who gang up and downvote/flag others who don't agree with the gang opinion. or this: > (Psst ... If you see this comment disappear after a while, it's probably because the same Apple fanboys found this comment and decided to hammer it down again.) than this: > criticizing Apple's monopoly and policies Source: Have criticized Apple without having been downvoted and flagged.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - dheera 6y ago
    I think it depends on how you criticize them. I've criticized: - The idea that we can trust Apple with privacy, when their OS isn't open source - The idea that the Apple Store is doing good things in the disguise of privacy when they actually play corporate favoritism and unfairly monopolize the app market - The idea that a PIN has enough entropy to be a good measure of security - Right to repair, soldered-to-motherboard SSDs - The environmental waste associated with the lack of upgradability - Price gouging on upgrades ($400 for +512GB, anyone? When I can get 4TB on Amazon for $500?) and lack of user upgradability I've been downvoted to hell for speaking the above. There are a bunch of brainwashed Apple worshippers lurking around here who don't accept any criticism of the holy. I totally welcome engaging in an intelligent discussion about any of the above, but downvotes and flagging (in most cases without any response) doesn't accomplish any of that, and serves just to amplify the fanboy echo chamber. Also, I don't think criticizing HN's algorithm or design should warrant being flagged or downvoted, either. Downvoting should be reserved for trolling, not intelligent protest. I'm also of the opinion that downvotes shouldn't be used for well-written disagreement, as that creates an echo chamber and suppresses non-majority opinions.
dis-sys 6y ago
> Why not look at some of the potential bright sides to this for a more nuanced and balanced opinion? because as a NVIDIA user of the last 20 years, I never saw such bright side when it comes to open source.
arp242 6y ago
I don't really have an opinion on nVidia, as I haven't dealt with any of their products for over a decade; my own problem with this is somewhat more abstract: I'm not a big fan of this constant drive towards merging all these tech companies (or indeed, any company really). Perhaps there are some short-term advantages for the ARM platform, but on the long term it means a few small tech companies will have all the power, which doesn't strike me as a good thing.
- QuixoticQuibit 6y ago
  I don’t disagree with you, but I see it two ways: 1. The continued conglomeratization in the tech sector is a worrying trend as we see fewer and fewer small players. 2. Only a large-ish company could provide effective competition in the CPU/ISA/architecture space against the current x86 duopoly.
  - arp242 6y ago
    I'm not so sure about that second point; I don't see why an independent ARM couldn't provide an effective competition? Server ARMs have been a thing for a while, and Apple has been working on ARM macbooks for a while. I believe the goal is even to completely displace Intel macBooks in favour of the ARM ones eventually. The big practical issue is probably software compatibility and the like, and it seems to me that the Apple/macOS adoption will do more for that than nVidia ownership.

ianai 6y ago

Yes I wonder the same thing about the sentiment against nvidia. It’s be helpful if there were some wiki about things they’ve killed or instances they’ve acted against foss systems.

mixmastamyk 6y ago
Linus famously gave them the middle-finger.
- paulmd 6y ago
  "linus went on a hyperbolic rant" isn't sufficient evidence for anything. linus is a hyperbolic jerk (as he admitted himself for a few months before resuming his hyperbolic ways) who is increasingly out of touch with anything outside the direct sphere of his projects. Like his misguided and completely unnecessary rants about ZFS or AVX. if there are technical merits to discuss you can post those instead of just appealing to linus' hyperbole. (I won't even say "appeal to authority" because that's not what you're appealing to. You're literally appealing to his middle finger.)
  - andrewprock 6y ago
    The notion that the maintainer if Linux has a narrow focus role that isn't capable of advocating and serving the broader community is belied by the fact that Linux has grown from being a niche hobbyist platform to the de facto cloud standard OS.
    - paulmd 6y ago
      https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/01/linus-torvalds-zfs-statements-arent-right-heres-the-straight-dope/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/01/linus-torvalds-zfs-s... https://www.zdnet.com/article/linus-torvalds-i-hope-intels-avx-512-dies-a-painful-death/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/linus-torvalds-i-hope-intels-a... /shrug. The guy can't keep from popping off with obviously false statements about things he knows nothing about. What exactly do you want me to say? Yes, he's been a good manager for the linux kernel, but he is self-admittedly hyperbolic and statements like these show that he really doesn't have an issue running his mouth about things that he really doesn't understand. It is the old problem with software engineers: they think expertise in one field or one area makes them a certified supergenius with relevant input in completely unrelated areas. I can't count how many times I've seen someone on HN suggest One Weird Trick To Solve Hard Problems in [aerospace/materials sciences/etc]. Linus suffers from the same thing. His experiences with NVIDIA are probably relevant, and if so we can discuss that, but the fact that he gave someone the middle finger in a Q+A session is not. That's just Linus being an asshole. (and him being a long-term successful project manager doesn't make him not an asshole either. Jensen's an asshole and he's one of the most successful tech CEOs of all time. Linus doesn't mince words and we should do the same - he's an asshole on a professional level, the "I'm just being blunt!" schtick is just a nice dressing for what would in any other setting be described as a textbook toxic work environment, and his defenses are textbook "haha it's just locker room talk/we're all friends here" excuses that people causing toxic work environment are wont to make. He knows it, he said he'd tone it down, that lasted about a month and he's back to hyperbolic rants about things he doesn't really understand... like ZFS and AVX. But hey I guess they're not directed at people this time.) Again, if he's got relevant technical input we can discuss that but "linus gives the middle finger!!!!" is not the last word on the topic.
      - andrewprock 6y ago
        I don't take issue with the fact that Linus' behavior is problematic.
  - mixmastamyk 6y ago
    A little defensive, no? I trust his judgement more than Mr. Random on the internets.
  - arp242 6y ago
    He just responded to a complaint that nVidia hardware wasn't working with "nVidia is the worst company we've dealt with". I don't think that's "out of touch", it's pretty much the kind of stuff his job description entails. If you don't like his style, fair enough, but if the leader of a project says "company X is the worst company we deal with" then that doesn't inspire a whole lot of confidence.
    - paulmd 6y ago
      AFAIK the debate was mostly settled by NVIDIA submitting their own EGLStreams backend for Wayland (that promptly exposed a bunch of Wayland bugs). So difficult to work with, that NVIDIA, asking to do something different and then submitting their own code to implement it! https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=EGLStreams-Merged-KWin-5.16 https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=EGLStrea... AFAIK it also ended up being literally a couple thousand lines of code, not some massive endeavor, so the Wayland guys don’t come off looking real great, looks like they have their own Not Invented Here syndrome and certainly a lot of generalized hostility towards NVIDIA. Like Torvalds, I'll be blunt, my experience is that a lot of people just know NVIDIA is evil because of these dozens of little scandals they’ve drummed up, and they almost all fall apart when you look into them, but people just fall back on asserting that NVIDIA must be up to something because of these 27 other things (that also fall apart when you poke them a bit). It is super trendy to hate on NVIDIA in the same way it’s super trendy to hate on Apple or Intel. Example: everyone used to bitch and moan about G-Sync, the biggest innovation in gaming in 10 years. Oh, it's this proprietary standard, it's using a proprietary module, why are they doing this, why don't they support the Adaptive Sync standard? Well, at the time they started doing it, Adaptive Sync was a draft standard for power-saving in laptops that had languished for years, there was no impetus to push the standard through, there were no monitors that supported it, and no real push to implement monitors either. Why take 10 years to get things through a standards group when you can just take a FPGA and do it yourself? And once you've done all that engineering work, are you going to give it away for free? Back in 2016 I outright said that sooner or later NVIDIA would have to support Adaptive Sync or else lose the home theater market/etc as consoles gained support. People told me I was loony, "NVIDIA'S just not that kind of company", etc. Well, turns out they were that kind of company, weren't they? Turns out people were mostly mad that... NVIDIA didn't immediately give all their engineering work away for free. The GPP is the only thing I’ve seen that really stank and they backed off that when they saw the reaction. Other than that they are mostly guilty of... using a software license you don’t like. It says a lot about the success of copyleft that anyone developing software with a proprietary license is automatically suspect. The truth is that NVIDIA, while proprietary, does a huge amount of really great engineering in novel areas that HNers would really applaud if it were any other company. Going and making your own monitor from scratch with a FPGA so you can implement a game-changing technology is exactly the kind of go-getter attitude that this site is supposed to embody. Variable refresh rate/GSync is a game changer. DLSS 2.0 is a game changer. Raytracing is a game changer. And you have NVIDIA to thank for all of those, "proprietary" and all. They would not exist today without NVIDIA, AMD or Intel would not have independently pushed to develop those, even though they do have open-source drivers. What a conundrum.
WrtCdEvrydy 6y ago
Nvidia does not publish drivers, only binary blobs. You generally have to wrap those and use them while not being foss-compatible.

LanternLight83 6y ago

There are good points on both sides; as a Linux user, I feel the effects of their proprietary drivers and uncooperative approach, while I can also appreciate that they've managed to work with the Gnome and KDE project to have some support under Wayland, and the contributions they've made to the machine learning communities. Ad a whole, I do think that the former outweighs the latter, and loath the acquisition, but do think that the resources they're packing will bring ARM to new heights for the majority users.

endgame 6y ago
https://drewdevault.com/2017/10/26/Fuck-you-nvidia.html https://drewdevault.com/2017/10/26/Fuck-you-nvidia.html You mean this Weyland "support"?
- selectodude 6y ago
  "October 26, 2017" I'm not coming out and saying it's gotten significantly better, but that is a three year old article and Nvidia-wayland does work on KDE and Gnome.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - timidger 6y ago
    That's because they implemented egl streams, nothing has changed majorly since then. There's been a lot of talk, but no action towards unification. The ball is entirely in Nvidia's court and they continue to work together on this.
- CountSessine 6y ago
  The funny thing about GBM vs EGLStreams, though, based on everything I’ve read online, is that there’s broad agreement that EGLStreams is the technically superior approach - and that the reason it’s been rejected by the Linux graphics devs is GBM, while inferior, has broad hardware vendor support. Apparently very few GPU vendors outside the big 3 had decent EGl implementations.

throwaway2048 6y ago

The OP said nothing about being ok with the x86 duopoly. Its possible to dislike two things at once, its also possible to be wary of new developments that give much more market power to a notoriously uncooperative and closed company.

dheera 6y ago

> The HN crowd is incredibly biased against certain companies. No kidding, regarding the HN crowd. -- every time I post a comment criticizing Apple's monopoly and policies I get downvoted to oblivion, and I'd say that some of the things they do e.g. on the Apple store and proprietary hardware/software combinations are far more egregious than anything Nvidia has ever done. The HN algorithm basically encourages an echo chamber of people who gang up and downvote/flag others who don't agree with the gang opinion. (Psst ... If you see this comment disappear after a while, it's probably because the same Apple fanboys found this comment and decided to hammer it down again.)

barbecue_sauce 6y ago
What's the point of pretending that people don't know you will get downvoted for holding an unpopular opinion? It's tautological.
Shared404 6y ago
Haven't looked at the rest of your posts, but if this gets flagged, it's probably from this: [Edit: I disagree with my past self of having put this comment here. This is something that if one feels that they notice, they should probably comment on. Leaving it here for clarity's sake] > The HN algorithm basically encourages an echo chamber of people who gang up and downvote/flag others who don't agree with the gang opinion. or this: > (Psst ... If you see this comment disappear after a while, it's probably because the same Apple fanboys found this comment and decided to hammer it down again.) than this: > criticizing Apple's monopoly and policies Source: Have criticized Apple without having been downvoted and flagged.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- dheera 6y ago
  I think it depends on how you criticize them. I've criticized: - The idea that we can trust Apple with privacy, when their OS isn't open source - The idea that the Apple Store is doing good things in the disguise of privacy when they actually play corporate favoritism and unfairly monopolize the app market - The idea that a PIN has enough entropy to be a good measure of security - Right to repair, soldered-to-motherboard SSDs - The environmental waste associated with the lack of upgradability - Price gouging on upgrades ($400 for +512GB, anyone? When I can get 4TB on Amazon for $500?) and lack of user upgradability I've been downvoted to hell for speaking the above. There are a bunch of brainwashed Apple worshippers lurking around here who don't accept any criticism of the holy. I totally welcome engaging in an intelligent discussion about any of the above, but downvotes and flagging (in most cases without any response) doesn't accomplish any of that, and serves just to amplify the fanboy echo chamber. Also, I don't think criticizing HN's algorithm or design should warrant being flagged or downvoted, either. Downvoting should be reserved for trolling, not intelligent protest. I'm also of the opinion that downvotes shouldn't be used for well-written disagreement, as that creates an echo chamber and suppresses non-majority opinions.

dis-sys 6y ago

> Why not look at some of the potential bright sides to this for a more nuanced and balanced opinion? because as a NVIDIA user of the last 20 years, I never saw such bright side when it comes to open source.

arp242 6y ago

I don't really have an opinion on nVidia, as I haven't dealt with any of their products for over a decade; my own problem with this is somewhat more abstract: I'm not a big fan of this constant drive towards merging all these tech companies (or indeed, any company really). Perhaps there are some short-term advantages for the ARM platform, but on the long term it means a few small tech companies will have all the power, which doesn't strike me as a good thing.

QuixoticQuibit 6y ago
I don’t disagree with you, but I see it two ways: 1. The continued conglomeratization in the tech sector is a worrying trend as we see fewer and fewer small players. 2. Only a large-ish company could provide effective competition in the CPU/ISA/architecture space against the current x86 duopoly.
- arp242 6y ago
  I'm not so sure about that second point; I don't see why an independent ARM couldn't provide an effective competition? Server ARMs have been a thing for a while, and Apple has been working on ARM macbooks for a while. I believe the goal is even to completely displace Intel macBooks in favour of the ARM ones eventually. The big practical issue is probably software compatibility and the like, and it seems to me that the Apple/macOS adoption will do more for that than nVidia ownership.