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In real life on the iPhone we have had apps secretly uploading your address book, copying your clipboard and listening for tones embedded in television ads. An

In real life on the iPhone we have had apps secretly uploading your address book, copying your clipboard and listening for tones embedded in television ads. And "The Fappening" where many people's private photos were leaked.

marcinzm 6y ago
If that's what happens when you've got hundreds of experts working to prevent it then why do you think it'll be a less of a problem when it's random non-experts? edit: The imperfection of the current system does not prove that another option is better.
- benologist 6y ago
  > hundreds of experts working to prevent it Every major operating system has this regardless of whether they force you to download software through one marketplace. You're not less-secure if you use two marketplaces as long as both those marketplaces are kept secure. iOS is kept secure independently of the App Store as well.
nodamage 6y ago
In real life we also have murders and kidnappings, that just means no system is perfect. It certainly doesn't mean there's no point in having law enforcement.
- danShumway 6y ago
  Sure, but think very carefully about whether or not you actually want me to compare Apple to law enforcement. My feeling is that a different analogy would better suit your argument. Is your intention really to make me think about government 'security' talking points around encryption and terrorism? In real life, if someone told me that murders and kidnappings were a good reason for the government to have absolute control over what computer applications are allowed to be built or what games/media are allowed to be distributed by its citizens, I would call that person an authoritarian. That's because in real life we balance law enforcement with individual rights. We don't just claim that every single intrusion into people's privacy and autonomy is necessary because otherwise the murderers would come. We also view certain freedoms as inalienable -- we believe that protecting those freedoms is just universally more important than preventing murderers. In fact, many people believe believe that some degree of difficulty and inexactness and imperfection in law enforcement is necessary for the furthering of social progress outside of what the government currently believes is acceptable. In other words, we balance between anarchy and authoritarianism. In the same way, we don't only have two choices here. There is a middle ground between "only Apple decides what can run on your devices", and "everyone for themselves, forget trying to make anyone secure." We can get better sandboxing, we can learn more UX techniques around warnings, we can improve public education about computers, we can build out device administration tools, we can build very targeted escape hatches that don't turn the OS into a free-for-all. Even beyond that, we can decide that some user freedoms are worth an increase in malware, the same way that we've decided some security gains are worth a decrease in user freedom. So I'm not really swayed by someone saying that the only way to prevent malware is if Apple/Google ban porn, and decide for users which payment methods they're allowed to use in an app, and decide whether or not online game streaming apps are allowed to enter the market, and decide whether or not serious games like Sweatshop can be considered art, and decide whether or not podcast apps will be allowed to include COVID podcasts in their directories. At the very least, we could get rid of most of those restrictions, or we could move all of the security checks to a separate layer and allow people to bypass the content restrictions on their own, and none of that would impact device security. That we want some security checks does not imply that we should never try to balance security with user freedom.
  - nodamage 6y ago
    > My feeling is that a different analogy would better suit your argument. Feel free to pick whatever example you'd like, the underlying point is the same: just because some bad actors will ignore the regulations anyways doesn't mean we shouldn't have the regulations in the first place or the regulations have no net benefit. In other words, pointing to a few counter examples and saying "gotcha! your regulation didn't perfectly prevent everything!" is not a meaningful critique. > So I'm not really swayed by someone saying that the only way to prevent malware is if Apple/Google ban porn, and decide for users which payment methods they're allowed to use in an app, and decide whether or not online game streaming apps are allowed to enter the market, and decide whether or not serious games like Sweatshop can be considered art, and decide whether or not podcast apps will be allowed to include COVID podcasts in their directories. I generally agree that these examples are overly restrictive and unnecessary. However, I don't think legally forcing manufacturers to open up their devices to side-loading is the appropriate remedy, because it increases the level of risk from bad actors attempting to exploit those devices. I also think Hacker News posters have a tendency to underestimate/downplay those risks because as highly technical people they know what to do to avoid those risks - but the same does not apply to the vast majority of users.
    - danShumway 6y ago
      We might be arguing past each other. I agree that cherry-picking doesn't mean that a system should be immediately discarded. But in my mind, the point of bringing up individual malware examples is not to say that all regulation is worthless, it's to drive home that perfect security doesn't exist, that we shouldn't be striving for perfect security in the first place, and that the real world is about balancing security with other concerns. I don't understand what makes your argument different from, "I don't think allowing encryption is a good thing, because it increases the level of risk from terrorists and traffickers." There is no such thing as a malware free world, and saying, "this would increase malware" is not an immediately persuasive argument. In other words, if your angle is that you're worried about people cherry-picking counter-examples, my angle is that I'm worried about people pointing at every single security restriction and saying it's critically important, regardless of what it costs users. We're talking about abandoning a fundamental user right. I need to see stronger evidence that the security gain is so large that it justifies getting rid of that right. The reason your comparison to the government stuck out to me is because it's the same faulty reasoning that the government uses all the time to say that any increase in citizen security or rule enforcement is worth pursuing, regardless of what it means for citizen autonomy. > I also think Hacker News posters have a tendency to underestimate/downplay those risks What are those risks? You want to get rid of cherry-picking, what kind of change in malware would we be talking about if we got rid of sideloading on Android or introduced it on iOS? The best data I'm seeing online suggests possibly an impact to 0.5% of current devices based on Android statistics, and that's assuming we can't get any other gains from sandboxing and user-education. Frankly, even assuming that we couldn't reduce that number farther, that's not a number that's big enough to justify abandoning a user's fundamental right to control what code runs on their device. Especially when we have good evidence that in the absence of that right, companies like Apple will both censor and use their power to control the market and target competitors. > I don't think legally forcing manufacturers to open up their devices to side-loading is the appropriate remedy I'm open to lots of solutions here, some regulatory and some market-based. We don't need to focus on just sideloading if there are other solutions other people find more palatable (<cough>Repeal the DMCA</cough>). But even on the topic of sideloading, I'm open to the idea that this doesn't need to be a general regulation. I'm fine with saying that Apple is in a unique position because it's one part of a duopoly, and that we don't have to make a generalized rule for every company just to target Apple/Google specifically. My position isn't necessarily that manufacturers all need to be forced to open up their devices, it's that it might make sense to impose that regulation on companies in a duopoly when it can be demonstrated that they are actively harming the market with their restrictions. Even regulatory solutions are a balance; regulating an aggressive duopoly is different from regulating an entire market.

marcinzm 6y ago

If that's what happens when you've got hundreds of experts working to prevent it then why do you think it'll be a less of a problem when it's random non-experts? edit: The imperfection of the current system does not prove that another option is better.

benologist 6y ago
> hundreds of experts working to prevent it Every major operating system has this regardless of whether they force you to download software through one marketplace. You're not less-secure if you use two marketplaces as long as both those marketplaces are kept secure. iOS is kept secure independently of the App Store as well.

nodamage 6y ago

In real life we also have murders and kidnappings, that just means no system is perfect. It certainly doesn't mean there's no point in having law enforcement.

danShumway 6y ago
Sure, but think very carefully about whether or not you actually want me to compare Apple to law enforcement. My feeling is that a different analogy would better suit your argument. Is your intention really to make me think about government 'security' talking points around encryption and terrorism? In real life, if someone told me that murders and kidnappings were a good reason for the government to have absolute control over what computer applications are allowed to be built or what games/media are allowed to be distributed by its citizens, I would call that person an authoritarian. That's because in real life we balance law enforcement with individual rights. We don't just claim that every single intrusion into people's privacy and autonomy is necessary because otherwise the murderers would come. We also view certain freedoms as inalienable -- we believe that protecting those freedoms is just universally more important than preventing murderers. In fact, many people believe believe that some degree of difficulty and inexactness and imperfection in law enforcement is necessary for the furthering of social progress outside of what the government currently believes is acceptable. In other words, we balance between anarchy and authoritarianism. In the same way, we don't only have two choices here. There is a middle ground between "only Apple decides what can run on your devices", and "everyone for themselves, forget trying to make anyone secure." We can get better sandboxing, we can learn more UX techniques around warnings, we can improve public education about computers, we can build out device administration tools, we can build very targeted escape hatches that don't turn the OS into a free-for-all. Even beyond that, we can decide that some user freedoms are worth an increase in malware, the same way that we've decided some security gains are worth a decrease in user freedom. So I'm not really swayed by someone saying that the only way to prevent malware is if Apple/Google ban porn, and decide for users which payment methods they're allowed to use in an app, and decide whether or not online game streaming apps are allowed to enter the market, and decide whether or not serious games like Sweatshop can be considered art, and decide whether or not podcast apps will be allowed to include COVID podcasts in their directories. At the very least, we could get rid of most of those restrictions, or we could move all of the security checks to a separate layer and allow people to bypass the content restrictions on their own, and none of that would impact device security. That we want some security checks does not imply that we should never try to balance security with user freedom.
- nodamage 6y ago
  > My feeling is that a different analogy would better suit your argument. Feel free to pick whatever example you'd like, the underlying point is the same: just because some bad actors will ignore the regulations anyways doesn't mean we shouldn't have the regulations in the first place or the regulations have no net benefit. In other words, pointing to a few counter examples and saying "gotcha! your regulation didn't perfectly prevent everything!" is not a meaningful critique. > So I'm not really swayed by someone saying that the only way to prevent malware is if Apple/Google ban porn, and decide for users which payment methods they're allowed to use in an app, and decide whether or not online game streaming apps are allowed to enter the market, and decide whether or not serious games like Sweatshop can be considered art, and decide whether or not podcast apps will be allowed to include COVID podcasts in their directories. I generally agree that these examples are overly restrictive and unnecessary. However, I don't think legally forcing manufacturers to open up their devices to side-loading is the appropriate remedy, because it increases the level of risk from bad actors attempting to exploit those devices. I also think Hacker News posters have a tendency to underestimate/downplay those risks because as highly technical people they know what to do to avoid those risks - but the same does not apply to the vast majority of users.
  - danShumway 6y ago
    We might be arguing past each other. I agree that cherry-picking doesn't mean that a system should be immediately discarded. But in my mind, the point of bringing up individual malware examples is not to say that all regulation is worthless, it's to drive home that perfect security doesn't exist, that we shouldn't be striving for perfect security in the first place, and that the real world is about balancing security with other concerns. I don't understand what makes your argument different from, "I don't think allowing encryption is a good thing, because it increases the level of risk from terrorists and traffickers." There is no such thing as a malware free world, and saying, "this would increase malware" is not an immediately persuasive argument. In other words, if your angle is that you're worried about people cherry-picking counter-examples, my angle is that I'm worried about people pointing at every single security restriction and saying it's critically important, regardless of what it costs users. We're talking about abandoning a fundamental user right. I need to see stronger evidence that the security gain is so large that it justifies getting rid of that right. The reason your comparison to the government stuck out to me is because it's the same faulty reasoning that the government uses all the time to say that any increase in citizen security or rule enforcement is worth pursuing, regardless of what it means for citizen autonomy. > I also think Hacker News posters have a tendency to underestimate/downplay those risks What are those risks? You want to get rid of cherry-picking, what kind of change in malware would we be talking about if we got rid of sideloading on Android or introduced it on iOS? The best data I'm seeing online suggests possibly an impact to 0.5% of current devices based on Android statistics, and that's assuming we can't get any other gains from sandboxing and user-education. Frankly, even assuming that we couldn't reduce that number farther, that's not a number that's big enough to justify abandoning a user's fundamental right to control what code runs on their device. Especially when we have good evidence that in the absence of that right, companies like Apple will both censor and use their power to control the market and target competitors. > I don't think legally forcing manufacturers to open up their devices to side-loading is the appropriate remedy I'm open to lots of solutions here, some regulatory and some market-based. We don't need to focus on just sideloading if there are other solutions other people find more palatable (<cough>Repeal the DMCA</cough>). But even on the topic of sideloading, I'm open to the idea that this doesn't need to be a general regulation. I'm fine with saying that Apple is in a unique position because it's one part of a duopoly, and that we don't have to make a generalized rule for every company just to target Apple/Google specifically. My position isn't necessarily that manufacturers all need to be forced to open up their devices, it's that it might make sense to impose that regulation on companies in a duopoly when it can be demonstrated that they are actively harming the market with their restrictions. Even regulatory solutions are a balance; regulating an aggressive duopoly is different from regulating an entire market.