4 ms·

Well, part of my point is that it's very very slow, and because of that, there are all kinds of points I could pick for 'since when'. Maybe I'd pick when apple

Well, part of my point is that it's very very slow, and because of that, there are all kinds of points I could pick for 'since when'. Maybe I'd pick when apple removed the default install from mac os, or maybe I'd pick when browsers made it impossible to run applets, or maybe I'd pick when the major java IDEs started pushing other languages like kotlin or xtend, or maybe I'd pick the oracle acquisition (never a good thing), or maybe I'd pick the release of go - a language squarely targetting pretty much the only niche that java has left (enterprise development of servers by mixed ability teams), maybe I'd pick the point when java development felt like it became more like configuring metadata for frameworks than actually coding, or maybe I'd pick when google started showing kotlin as the default language for developing on Android rather than Java. Here's google trends for java: https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=java https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=j... Java-the-language is not going away any time soon, but if you expect it to do anything except decline, I think the future will be disappointing.

pjmlp 6y ago
Yep, so much decline with 80% of the mobile phones, even if it is based on Android Java, on top of which do you think all Android tools run on? Then do you think the likes of SAP, Adobe, Amazon, Azure, Ricoh, Gemalto, PTC, Azul,.... are going to port their golden eggs to Go now?
- sinsterizme 6y ago
  This doesn’t refute his point, Java the language is separate from the JVM. And those big companies will follow the decreasing Java usage trend due to developer supply and demand. Anecdotally, it seems pretty obvious some of those companies are already doing this by writing new stuff in other, better languages when possible! To me that’s a good indicator a language is slowly dying, maybe you use a different definition.
  - andyroid 6y ago
    Pretty much any language running on the JVM will make it dead simple to import and use libraries written in Java - in fact one of the main reasons to choose the JVM is the huge amount of high quality libraries available. So while true that Java != JVM, it’s not as simple as that either.
  - pjmlp 6y ago
    Most JVM implementations are around 80% Java with some C++ for the JIT/AOT and GC, GraalVM and JikesRVM have even bigger percentage. It is an illusion to use JVM without touching or understanding Java works.
    - andykx 6y ago
      I mean, I know tons of Scala and Clojure devs who don’t touch Java at all in their day to day work. I don’t think the user(s) above were referring to the implementation of the JVM.
      - pjmlp 6y ago
        Then something blows on their face and they are completely lost, because they don't know what powers their code or the boilerplate magic that they generate to pretend to be Java for the JVM. I have seen a couple of those guys, where I get called to sort out their problems.
        afiori 6y ago
        But this is still compatible with Java slowly dying. It is possible that in a future Java role in the JVM will share some similarities with C's role in CPython.
- vfistri2 6y ago
  Nop they’ll probabbly just buy new software that is built on smth like go

pjmlp 6y ago

Yep, so much decline with 80% of the mobile phones, even if it is based on Android Java, on top of which do you think all Android tools run on? Then do you think the likes of SAP, Adobe, Amazon, Azure, Ricoh, Gemalto, PTC, Azul,.... are going to port their golden eggs to Go now?

sinsterizme 6y ago
This doesn’t refute his point, Java the language is separate from the JVM. And those big companies will follow the decreasing Java usage trend due to developer supply and demand. Anecdotally, it seems pretty obvious some of those companies are already doing this by writing new stuff in other, better languages when possible! To me that’s a good indicator a language is slowly dying, maybe you use a different definition.
- andyroid 6y ago
  Pretty much any language running on the JVM will make it dead simple to import and use libraries written in Java - in fact one of the main reasons to choose the JVM is the huge amount of high quality libraries available. So while true that Java != JVM, it’s not as simple as that either.
- pjmlp 6y ago
  Most JVM implementations are around 80% Java with some C++ for the JIT/AOT and GC, GraalVM and JikesRVM have even bigger percentage. It is an illusion to use JVM without touching or understanding Java works.
  - andykx 6y ago
    I mean, I know tons of Scala and Clojure devs who don’t touch Java at all in their day to day work. I don’t think the user(s) above were referring to the implementation of the JVM.
    - pjmlp 6y ago
      Then something blows on their face and they are completely lost, because they don't know what powers their code or the boilerplate magic that they generate to pretend to be Java for the JVM. I have seen a couple of those guys, where I get called to sort out their problems.
      - afiori 6y ago
        But this is still compatible with Java slowly dying. It is possible that in a future Java role in the JVM will share some similarities with C's role in CPython.
vfistri2 6y ago
Nop they’ll probabbly just buy new software that is built on smth like go