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It's been a little while since I've heard this one, but if there's one thing that I remember hitting me is that the same language used by the interviewer is use

It's been a little while since I've heard this one, but if there's one thing that I remember hitting me is that the same language used by the interviewer is used today about privacy, end user programming and any other more powerful technology, programming language or paradigm. It seems that as an culture we're always able to go so far, but not all the way. We see the path between start and end, there's no genius needed for the last push, but after so much progress we reduce ambition towards the end goal and instead develop arguments against continuing. At some point we just don't think people need help with paper based tasks, "look around you, it's how everything is done" yet here we are with the PC 40 years later. And people look around and think that there is no chance everyone could be a programmer "look around you, they're all consumers, they couldn't understand how to make the computer do what they like". In 40 years there's no doubt this viewpoint will be wrong, but the popular opinion on the matter can't see that future. See Bret Victors history of computing. The biggest adversary we have to overcome towards progress is the mainstream experts of our own field. We have apps which seem to be like starting from scratch every time, which can't have abilities known by all because they aren't prepackaged by the devs ahead of time. Every app reinvents a minimal subset of sorting and search. If you have a better idea or a different connection you want to make its just not possible in the app. Stop pretending that debilitating users is actually good for them in the silly word games we play. Give users power.

anotherhue 6y ago
> The biggest adversary we have to overcome towards progress is the mainstream experts of our own field. “Science advances one funeral at a time.” - Max Planck (Apparently)
- angleofrepose 6y ago
  This Idea Must Die is an interesting take on that concept.
webwanderings 6y ago
Good for the interviewer for making counter arrangements at that time. Some of the things he said are still true: we still have to come up with categories in our heads. This is true regardless of advancements in ML.
- angleofrepose 6y ago
  Good point! I might give it another listen. I remember it being an interesting respectful conversation with no ground given on either side. Hence the title, I suppose.
danbolt 6y ago
I feel like we don't give tools like Microsoft Excel, Game Maker, Photoshop, or the web enough credit for the ability they empower users of computers. Without any formal training or education, they're able to use computers to their ends.
- konjin 6y ago
  Give Excel to an uncontacted tribe and see how well they go with it. That we assume reading, numeracy and fine motor skills which until 5 centuries ago were the preserve of less than 1% of the population in the West are not part of formal education or training should tell you all you need to know about how much cultural knowledge we assume people need to have in their daily life to function at the level of a 10 year old. That 4 years to learn to read is considered normal but reading a 100 page manual is considered unreasonable shows us how much popular culture is lagging behind our tools. Given how technocentric our culture is, this is a situation as ridiculous as Mongols complaining that they need to learn to ride horses.
  - danbolt 6y ago
    oh ok
himinlomax 6y ago
> there is no chance everyone could be a programmer There is no chance, even if by "everyone" you just meant "a majority". It's intellectually challenging, just for one.
- jstanley 6y ago
  Reading and writing is intellectually challenging. Everyone can do it now, because we make sure to teach them to do it, and because it's necessary to live in modern society.
  - himinlomax 6y ago
    Almost anyone can walk, not everyone can climb mount Everest, or even a much smaller mountain face. Bad analogies are bad.
    - AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
      Are you seriously trying to claim that programming, of any useful sort, is so hard that only really smart people, presumably like yourself, can do it? Christ. I really hope the software development industry gets its ego kicked in really hard in the near future so everything can stop sucking because of elitist asshats.
      - himinlomax 6y ago
        Well on one hand, it could be my massive ego, and on the other it could be the truth. You're the one arguing on the basis of value. I don't. Let me just ask you this; do you think that being a good enough finance trader requires a high IQ? I'm pretty sure of it, and I'm also of the opinion that what they're applying their smarts to is a net negative for society as a whole. Another question, have you read Steven Pinker's The Blank Slate?
- dustingetz 6y ago
  Imagine if "everyone" was literate, what a world that would be /s

anotherhue 6y ago

> The biggest adversary we have to overcome towards progress is the mainstream experts of our own field. “Science advances one funeral at a time.” - Max Planck (Apparently)

angleofrepose 6y ago
This Idea Must Die is an interesting take on that concept.

webwanderings 6y ago

Good for the interviewer for making counter arrangements at that time. Some of the things he said are still true: we still have to come up with categories in our heads. This is true regardless of advancements in ML.

angleofrepose 6y ago
Good point! I might give it another listen. I remember it being an interesting respectful conversation with no ground given on either side. Hence the title, I suppose.

danbolt 6y ago

I feel like we don't give tools like Microsoft Excel, Game Maker, Photoshop, or the web enough credit for the ability they empower users of computers. Without any formal training or education, they're able to use computers to their ends.

konjin 6y ago
Give Excel to an uncontacted tribe and see how well they go with it. That we assume reading, numeracy and fine motor skills which until 5 centuries ago were the preserve of less than 1% of the population in the West are not part of formal education or training should tell you all you need to know about how much cultural knowledge we assume people need to have in their daily life to function at the level of a 10 year old. That 4 years to learn to read is considered normal but reading a 100 page manual is considered unreasonable shows us how much popular culture is lagging behind our tools. Given how technocentric our culture is, this is a situation as ridiculous as Mongols complaining that they need to learn to ride horses.
- danbolt 6y ago
  oh ok

himinlomax 6y ago

> there is no chance everyone could be a programmer There is no chance, even if by "everyone" you just meant "a majority". It's intellectually challenging, just for one.

jstanley 6y ago
Reading and writing is intellectually challenging. Everyone can do it now, because we make sure to teach them to do it, and because it's necessary to live in modern society.
- himinlomax 6y ago
  Almost anyone can walk, not everyone can climb mount Everest, or even a much smaller mountain face. Bad analogies are bad.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
    Are you seriously trying to claim that programming, of any useful sort, is so hard that only really smart people, presumably like yourself, can do it? Christ. I really hope the software development industry gets its ego kicked in really hard in the near future so everything can stop sucking because of elitist asshats.
    - himinlomax 6y ago
      Well on one hand, it could be my massive ego, and on the other it could be the truth. You're the one arguing on the basis of value. I don't. Let me just ask you this; do you think that being a good enough finance trader requires a high IQ? I'm pretty sure of it, and I'm also of the opinion that what they're applying their smarts to is a net negative for society as a whole. Another question, have you read Steven Pinker's The Blank Slate?
dustingetz 6y ago
Imagine if "everyone" was literate, what a world that would be /s