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Yup, the sunset date for Python 2 was moved from 2015 to 2020. People have had plenty of time to move. https://www.python.org/doc/sunset-python-2/ https://www.

Yup, the sunset date for Python 2 was moved from 2015 to 2020. People have had plenty of time to move. https://www.python.org/doc/sunset-python-2/ https://www.python.org/doc/sunset-python-2/

p_l 6y ago
Should have been 2010 or earlier, with less breaking changes. I expect the pains of dealing with 2vs3 to continue for few years at least, and that's with policy of avoiding and removing python were possible.
- bscphil 6y ago
  You're getting downvoted for what seems like a harsh policy. I think it's definitely understandable that most people want to make the switch as easy as possible, and that's the reason for the delay in discontinuing Python 2. But I would make the case like this: The slow approach failed. Chances are, most Python 2 code was written after 2010. By switching earlier, yes, you make the switch harder for the handful of people who actually did port their code, but on the other hand you avoid the exact same porting difficulties for many more because the majority of Python 2 code would never have been written! Someone upthread mentioned scientists, for example, who were still writing their analysis code in the late 2010s and are now confused about why none of it runs. To be sure, it's worth thinking about why it failed, as many other projects have been able to get away with a longer deprecation periods. But its seems like there is a case to be made, in pure consequentialist terms, that Python would have been better off killing Python 2 earlier.
  - p_l 6y ago
    Also consider that a lot of hardest to port python code in various enterprise systems is going to be python 2 for as long as it takes to kill last RHEL version that defaulted to Python 2 (which I think, is the RHEL7, which is going to be supported till I think 2026?)
sixstringtheory 6y ago
MISTER PROSSER: But Mister Dent the plans have been available in the planning office for the last nine months! ARTHUR DENT: Yes! I went round to find them yesterday afternoon. You hadn’t exactly gone out of your way to pull much attention to them have you? I mean, like actually telling anybody or anything. MISTER PROSSER: The plans were on display. ARTHUR DENT: Ah! And how many members of the public are in the habit of casually dropping around the local planning office of an evening? MISTER PROSSER: Er – ah! ARTHUR DENT: It’s not exactly a noted social venue is it? And even if you had popped in on the off chance that some raving bureaucrat wanted to knock your house down, the plans weren’t immediately obvious to the eye were they? MISTER PROSSER: That depends where you were looking. ARTHUR DENT: I eventually had to go down to the cellar! MISTER PROSSER: That’s the display department. ARTHUR DENT: With a torch! MISTER PROSSER: The lights, had… probably gone. ARTHUR DENT: So had the stairs! MISTER PROSSER: Well you found the notice didn’t you? ARTHUR DENT: Yes. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet, stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying “Beware of the Leopard”. Ever thought of going into advertising?
- AndrewDucker 6y ago
  Q: I didn't hear anything about this till just now. Where did you announce it? A: We talked about it at software conferences, on the Python announcement mailing list, on official Python blogs, in textbooks and technical articles, on social media, and to companies that sell Python support. Where else would you like them to have made it clear?
  - sixstringtheory 6y ago
    One problem is that all those things are more likely to reach people interested in Python unto itself vs as a tool to accomplish some other goal, like scientific research. The bigger problem, if/when you reach all those people, is convincing them to put their work on hold while they deal with the fallout of nonfunctional changes to the language/ecosystem, making them jump through academic and aesthetic hoops.
    - 6y ago
pornel 6y ago
It's not that nobody knew it's going to be EOL-ed, but I haven't met anyone taking it seriously. I've only seen a circular logic of "Python 2 is just fine, and nobody uses Python 3, so no rush". I've seen companies started and intentionally built on Python 2 after the original EOL deadline. It baffles my mind, because I've lived through PHP 4→5 switch. It was a major breaking language change that affected every object assignment. It felt like it was dragging on forever, but in retrospect, compared to Python, that was a quick and successful upgrade.
- abiogenesis 6y ago
  It is probably there are more disposable PHP projects than Python ones, meaning that the PHP code base is more frequently replenished with new projects that usually start with the latest version of PHP.
afiori 6y ago
Also plenty of time for python 3 to get a `from __past__ import py27` to run in backward compatibility mode so that python 2 code could be imported in python 3 modules.

Yup, the sunset date for Python 2 was moved from 2015 to 2020. People have had plenty of time to move. https://www.python.org/doc/sunset-python-2/ https://www.python.org/doc/sunset-python-2/

p_l 6y ago

Should have been 2010 or earlier, with less breaking changes. I expect the pains of dealing with 2vs3 to continue for few years at least, and that's with policy of avoiding and removing python were possible.

bscphil 6y ago
You're getting downvoted for what seems like a harsh policy. I think it's definitely understandable that most people want to make the switch as easy as possible, and that's the reason for the delay in discontinuing Python 2. But I would make the case like this: The slow approach failed. Chances are, most Python 2 code was written after 2010. By switching earlier, yes, you make the switch harder for the handful of people who actually did port their code, but on the other hand you avoid the exact same porting difficulties for many more because the majority of Python 2 code would never have been written! Someone upthread mentioned scientists, for example, who were still writing their analysis code in the late 2010s and are now confused about why none of it runs. To be sure, it's worth thinking about why it failed, as many other projects have been able to get away with a longer deprecation periods. But its seems like there is a case to be made, in pure consequentialist terms, that Python would have been better off killing Python 2 earlier.
- p_l 6y ago
  Also consider that a lot of hardest to port python code in various enterprise systems is going to be python 2 for as long as it takes to kill last RHEL version that defaulted to Python 2 (which I think, is the RHEL7, which is going to be supported till I think 2026?)

sixstringtheory 6y ago

MISTER PROSSER: But Mister Dent the plans have been available in the planning office for the last nine months! ARTHUR DENT: Yes! I went round to find them yesterday afternoon. You hadn’t exactly gone out of your way to pull much attention to them have you? I mean, like actually telling anybody or anything. MISTER PROSSER: The plans were on display. ARTHUR DENT: Ah! And how many members of the public are in the habit of casually dropping around the local planning office of an evening? MISTER PROSSER: Er – ah! ARTHUR DENT: It’s not exactly a noted social venue is it? And even if you had popped in on the off chance that some raving bureaucrat wanted to knock your house down, the plans weren’t immediately obvious to the eye were they? MISTER PROSSER: That depends where you were looking. ARTHUR DENT: I eventually had to go down to the cellar! MISTER PROSSER: That’s the display department. ARTHUR DENT: With a torch! MISTER PROSSER: The lights, had… probably gone. ARTHUR DENT: So had the stairs! MISTER PROSSER: Well you found the notice didn’t you? ARTHUR DENT: Yes. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet, stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying “Beware of the Leopard”. Ever thought of going into advertising?

AndrewDucker 6y ago
Q: I didn't hear anything about this till just now. Where did you announce it? A: We talked about it at software conferences, on the Python announcement mailing list, on official Python blogs, in textbooks and technical articles, on social media, and to companies that sell Python support. Where else would you like them to have made it clear?
- sixstringtheory 6y ago
  One problem is that all those things are more likely to reach people interested in Python unto itself vs as a tool to accomplish some other goal, like scientific research. The bigger problem, if/when you reach all those people, is convincing them to put their work on hold while they deal with the fallout of nonfunctional changes to the language/ecosystem, making them jump through academic and aesthetic hoops.
  - 6y ago

pornel 6y ago

It's not that nobody knew it's going to be EOL-ed, but I haven't met anyone taking it seriously. I've only seen a circular logic of "Python 2 is just fine, and nobody uses Python 3, so no rush". I've seen companies started and intentionally built on Python 2 after the original EOL deadline. It baffles my mind, because I've lived through PHP 4→5 switch. It was a major breaking language change that affected every object assignment. It felt like it was dragging on forever, but in retrospect, compared to Python, that was a quick and successful upgrade.

abiogenesis 6y ago
It is probably there are more disposable PHP projects than Python ones, meaning that the PHP code base is more frequently replenished with new projects that usually start with the latest version of PHP.

afiori 6y ago

Also plenty of time for python 3 to get a `from __past__ import py27` to run in backward compatibility mode so that python 2 code could be imported in python 3 modules.