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What drives me insane is that the arguments for hydrogen trucking here is even stronger for building a damn train track. If 25% of trucks are running the same r

What drives me insane is that the arguments for hydrogen trucking here is even stronger for building a damn train track. If 25% of trucks are running the same route for their entire life span, then they don’t have to actually be trucks; we are paying for flexibility that we don’t actually need.

ffggvv 6y ago
are trains even cheaper? and what about last mile delivery
- ashtonkem 6y ago
  Across all markets trains cost about 1/3 to deliver goods per ton mile[0]. And that’s before you consider the fact that roads are largely maintained on the public purse, representing a large hidden subsidy to the trucking industry that does the majority of damage to them. The issue is often that we don’t have enough rail, either to handle volume or to enough places. Last mile will have to be trucks, of course. But those short routes are both more variable and shorter, making them easier targets for electrification. It’s the long haul stuff that’s the low hanging fruit here. 0: https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/114th-congress-2015-2016/workingpaper/50049-Freight_Transport_Working_Paper-2.pdf https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/114th-congress-2015-... page 2.
- bretpiatt 6y ago
  And pipelines are even cheaper (and safer), obviously not everything can go in a pipeline but when it can we'd be much better off doing it that way. https://www.forbes.com/sites/tortoiseinvest/2016/05/13/transporting-oil-why-pipelines-still-rule/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/tortoiseinvest/2016/05/13/trans...
jcranmer 6y ago
Trains have a few issues: * Trains have worse geometric constraints: you need larger curves, straighter tracks, longer acceleration/deceleration paths, and lesser grade. It's much harder to add track where none exists already. * For efficiency reasons, trains want to be really long, so trains aren't dispatched until they're long enough to be worth doing so. Consequently, trains tend to be used only when either the source produces craptons of goods (ports, mines) or when there's no issue letting the goods sit around for a long while before a train picks them up (grains).
- ant6n 6y ago
  It's odd that there is so much interest in automated driving of trucks, which is a really hard problem, but very little interest in automatic shunting operations, which is technically easy in comparison. It would enable trains to compete better on trips which are shorter and/or have less volume.
  - kevin_thibedeau 6y ago
    It's a union job. Same reason the longshoremen use antiquated written methods for tracking shipping containers in port.
    - liability 6y ago
      The second season of The Wire comes to mind; perhaps longshoremen are wary of digitization because it would threaten their 'supplemental income.'
  - jcranmer 6y ago
    Offhand, I suspect it's a labor issue. The real labor issue for transportation is in finding people to do long-distance drives, and the mandatory rest periods you have to have in those positions. In contrast, local transportation allows people to go home to their families every night, and given that the crew also partakes in other tasks (such as handling sign-offs and manifests), it's not immediately clear to me that you could actually eliminate human positions with automation.
- mdorazio 6y ago
  To build on your second point, it also adds a step of complexity in the logistics process. You have to get your truckload of goods to and from the rail depot on both sides, so you're already using trucks.

ffggvv 6y ago

are trains even cheaper? and what about last mile delivery

ashtonkem 6y ago
Across all markets trains cost about 1/3 to deliver goods per ton mile[0]. And that’s before you consider the fact that roads are largely maintained on the public purse, representing a large hidden subsidy to the trucking industry that does the majority of damage to them. The issue is often that we don’t have enough rail, either to handle volume or to enough places. Last mile will have to be trucks, of course. But those short routes are both more variable and shorter, making them easier targets for electrification. It’s the long haul stuff that’s the low hanging fruit here. 0: https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/114th-congress-2015-2016/workingpaper/50049-Freight_Transport_Working_Paper-2.pdf https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/114th-congress-2015-... page 2.
bretpiatt 6y ago
And pipelines are even cheaper (and safer), obviously not everything can go in a pipeline but when it can we'd be much better off doing it that way. https://www.forbes.com/sites/tortoiseinvest/2016/05/13/transporting-oil-why-pipelines-still-rule/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/tortoiseinvest/2016/05/13/trans...

jcranmer 6y ago

Trains have a few issues: * Trains have worse geometric constraints: you need larger curves, straighter tracks, longer acceleration/deceleration paths, and lesser grade. It's much harder to add track where none exists already. * For efficiency reasons, trains want to be really long, so trains aren't dispatched until they're long enough to be worth doing so. Consequently, trains tend to be used only when either the source produces craptons of goods (ports, mines) or when there's no issue letting the goods sit around for a long while before a train picks them up (grains).

ant6n 6y ago
It's odd that there is so much interest in automated driving of trucks, which is a really hard problem, but very little interest in automatic shunting operations, which is technically easy in comparison. It would enable trains to compete better on trips which are shorter and/or have less volume.
- kevin_thibedeau 6y ago
  It's a union job. Same reason the longshoremen use antiquated written methods for tracking shipping containers in port.
  - liability 6y ago
    The second season of The Wire comes to mind; perhaps longshoremen are wary of digitization because it would threaten their 'supplemental income.'
- jcranmer 6y ago
  Offhand, I suspect it's a labor issue. The real labor issue for transportation is in finding people to do long-distance drives, and the mandatory rest periods you have to have in those positions. In contrast, local transportation allows people to go home to their families every night, and given that the crew also partakes in other tasks (such as handling sign-offs and manifests), it's not immediately clear to me that you could actually eliminate human positions with automation.
mdorazio 6y ago
To build on your second point, it also adds a step of complexity in the logistics process. You have to get your truckload of goods to and from the rail depot on both sides, so you're already using trucks.