8 ms·

Ted Nelson argues the importance of personal computing (1979) [video]

71 points by davisr 6y ago

ggrrhh_ta 6y ago
Such an immensely articulate person... His "Computers for Cynics" series is also very recommendable, the blockchain/bitcoin one particularly so for outsiders that want to know or need to communicate on related matters (e.g. journalists). Happy to have been able to hear him in youtube, he feels so close one feels one knows him personally.
- angleofrepose 6y ago
  I'll second the computers for cynics. I don't think one of that series is about blockchain but he does have other videos about blockchain. For those who don't know computers for cynics is his series about questioning the origins of the status quo and considering alternative futures with different foundations. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLTI2Kz0V2OFlgbkROVmzkfQRW2FrX2KfR https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLTI2Kz0V2OFlgbkROVmzk...
  - ggrrhh_ta 6y ago
    Is the seventh in the series: https://youtu.be/3CMucDjJQ4E https://youtu.be/3CMucDjJQ4E published on Sep 2014, six years ago, and a must-watch account for any outsider even in 2020. Enjoy it!
    - angleofrepose 6y ago
      Ah I didn't even realize the list I sent wasn't from his account. Thanks for the correction!
      - ggrrhh_ta 6y ago
        That 2014 video is so revealing... I think it deserves a post of its own :-)
- zandorg 6y ago
  I worked with Ted a few years from 2001 and though we kind of stopped working together, I knew him! So I do know him personally. He's a great guy though intolerant of nonsense.
  - ggrrhh_ta 6y ago
    He gives that impression from his videos. He seems to speak his mind honestly and rightfully demands reciprocity.
angleofrepose 6y ago
It's been a little while since I've heard this one, but if there's one thing that I remember hitting me is that the same language used by the interviewer is used today about privacy, end user programming and any other more powerful technology, programming language or paradigm. It seems that as an culture we're always able to go so far, but not all the way. We see the path between start and end, there's no genius needed for the last push, but after so much progress we reduce ambition towards the end goal and instead develop arguments against continuing. At some point we just don't think people need help with paper based tasks, "look around you, it's how everything is done" yet here we are with the PC 40 years later. And people look around and think that there is no chance everyone could be a programmer "look around you, they're all consumers, they couldn't understand how to make the computer do what they like". In 40 years there's no doubt this viewpoint will be wrong, but the popular opinion on the matter can't see that future. See Bret Victors history of computing. The biggest adversary we have to overcome towards progress is the mainstream experts of our own field. We have apps which seem to be like starting from scratch every time, which can't have abilities known by all because they aren't prepackaged by the devs ahead of time. Every app reinvents a minimal subset of sorting and search. If you have a better idea or a different connection you want to make its just not possible in the app. Stop pretending that debilitating users is actually good for them in the silly word games we play. Give users power.
- anotherhue 6y ago
  > The biggest adversary we have to overcome towards progress is the mainstream experts of our own field. “Science advances one funeral at a time.” - Max Planck (Apparently)
  - angleofrepose 6y ago
    This Idea Must Die is an interesting take on that concept.
- webwanderings 6y ago
  Good for the interviewer for making counter arrangements at that time. Some of the things he said are still true: we still have to come up with categories in our heads. This is true regardless of advancements in ML.
dang 6y ago
If curious see also a thread from 2018: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17376753 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17376753
wombatmobile 6y ago
13:40 "The two commonest digital notation languages in the world are musical notation, and knitting." Knitting is the perfect analogy for describing how DNA works to your grandmother. "Knit 1 purl 2 often enough and you end up with a sweater."
dustingetz 6y ago
LMAO 8:10 Interviewer: This seems to me first and foremost to be a technology looking for a problem to solve
- konjin 6y ago
  He's right. The same way that writing was. We had perfectly good oral traditions before writing and they were good enough to get us to the bronze age. I'm a bit annoyed at Ted Nelson for not making that comparison.
the-dude 6y ago
An [audio] tag would be more appropiate.
bborud 6y ago
I discovered that Ted Nelson has a Patreon: http://www.Patreon.com/thetednelson http://www.Patreon.com/thetednelson . I decided to sign up and perhaps you would like to help out with a few bucks too. I've seen talks by him a few times and I think he is worth listening to. He has interesting ideas well worth understanding.

71 points by davisr 6y ago

Such an immensely articulate person... His "Computers for Cynics" series is also very recommendable, the blockchain/bitcoin one particularly so for outsiders that want to know or need to communicate on related matters (e.g. journalists). Happy to have been able to hear him in youtube, he feels so close one feels one knows him personally.

angleofrepose 6y ago
I'll second the computers for cynics. I don't think one of that series is about blockchain but he does have other videos about blockchain. For those who don't know computers for cynics is his series about questioning the origins of the status quo and considering alternative futures with different foundations. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLTI2Kz0V2OFlgbkROVmzkfQRW2FrX2KfR https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLTI2Kz0V2OFlgbkROVmzk...
- ggrrhh_ta 6y ago
  Is the seventh in the series: https://youtu.be/3CMucDjJQ4E https://youtu.be/3CMucDjJQ4E published on Sep 2014, six years ago, and a must-watch account for any outsider even in 2020. Enjoy it!
  - angleofrepose 6y ago
    Ah I didn't even realize the list I sent wasn't from his account. Thanks for the correction!
    - ggrrhh_ta 6y ago
      That 2014 video is so revealing... I think it deserves a post of its own :-)
zandorg 6y ago
I worked with Ted a few years from 2001 and though we kind of stopped working together, I knew him! So I do know him personally. He's a great guy though intolerant of nonsense.
- ggrrhh_ta 6y ago
  He gives that impression from his videos. He seems to speak his mind honestly and rightfully demands reciprocity.

angleofrepose 6y ago

It's been a little while since I've heard this one, but if there's one thing that I remember hitting me is that the same language used by the interviewer is used today about privacy, end user programming and any other more powerful technology, programming language or paradigm. It seems that as an culture we're always able to go so far, but not all the way. We see the path between start and end, there's no genius needed for the last push, but after so much progress we reduce ambition towards the end goal and instead develop arguments against continuing. At some point we just don't think people need help with paper based tasks, "look around you, it's how everything is done" yet here we are with the PC 40 years later. And people look around and think that there is no chance everyone could be a programmer "look around you, they're all consumers, they couldn't understand how to make the computer do what they like". In 40 years there's no doubt this viewpoint will be wrong, but the popular opinion on the matter can't see that future. See Bret Victors history of computing. The biggest adversary we have to overcome towards progress is the mainstream experts of our own field. We have apps which seem to be like starting from scratch every time, which can't have abilities known by all because they aren't prepackaged by the devs ahead of time. Every app reinvents a minimal subset of sorting and search. If you have a better idea or a different connection you want to make its just not possible in the app. Stop pretending that debilitating users is actually good for them in the silly word games we play. Give users power.

anotherhue 6y ago
> The biggest adversary we have to overcome towards progress is the mainstream experts of our own field. “Science advances one funeral at a time.” - Max Planck (Apparently)
- angleofrepose 6y ago
  This Idea Must Die is an interesting take on that concept.
webwanderings 6y ago
Good for the interviewer for making counter arrangements at that time. Some of the things he said are still true: we still have to come up with categories in our heads. This is true regardless of advancements in ML.

dang 6y ago

If curious see also a thread from 2018: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17376753 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17376753

wombatmobile 6y ago

13:40 "The two commonest digital notation languages in the world are musical notation, and knitting." Knitting is the perfect analogy for describing how DNA works to your grandmother. "Knit 1 purl 2 often enough and you end up with a sweater."

dustingetz 6y ago

LMAO 8:10 Interviewer: This seems to me first and foremost to be a technology looking for a problem to solve

konjin 6y ago
He's right. The same way that writing was. We had perfectly good oral traditions before writing and they were good enough to get us to the bronze age. I'm a bit annoyed at Ted Nelson for not making that comparison.

the-dude 6y ago

An [audio] tag would be more appropiate.

bborud 6y ago

I discovered that Ted Nelson has a Patreon: http://www.Patreon.com/thetednelson http://www.Patreon.com/thetednelson . I decided to sign up and perhaps you would like to help out with a few bucks too. I've seen talks by him a few times and I think he is worth listening to. He has interesting ideas well worth understanding.