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> Some orca at some point in time would've realized it and eaten a human, yet that hasn't happened. There are no known attacks on humans, that doesn't mean tha

> Some orca at some point in time would've realized it and eaten a human, yet that hasn't happened. There are no known attacks on humans, that doesn't mean that is hasn't happened. Orcas are generally not hunting where humans swim, and they aren't going to capsize a freighter. Plus there's better food in the water, and it's more frequent. An orca, or a family of orcas that would specialize on hunting humans would starve. We don't swim in the open sea a lot, they don't walk through towns a lot. I believe you're over-estimating their intelligence.

dj_mc_merlin 6y ago
Fair point about the no known attacks. There's stories about orcas killing humans in many cultures that historically interacted with killers whales. > I believe you're over-estimating their intelligence. One of my favourite orca stories is the killers of Eden[0]. The wiki page is short and worth a read, but to summarize: a pod of whales learns to herd whales into a bay and alert humans to them. Humans harpoon them and the pod helps drag them back by pulling on the ropes. The carcass is left overnight for the pod, that eats its lips and tongue. Afterwards, the humans haul it back. Why would the orcas alert the humans unless they realized that the humans were responsible for the harpooning? Furthermore, just the act of slapping the river with water to attract attention is already quite advanced. And why did they only eat part of the whale (and always the same part)? Why did they never eat the humans? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killer_whales_of_Eden,_New_South_Wales https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killer_whales_of_Eden,_New_Sou...
- luckylion 6y ago
  I'm not trying to say that orcas aren't intelligent, they certainly are. We can cooperate with them, and they understand things, much like other dolphins do. If they weren't, you couldn't train them. I don't believe they're "if you eat that guy over there, the navy will come and hunt us down" smart though.
  - andrewflnr 6y ago
    They don't need to have such a clear idea of the consequences to realize it's a bad idea. Not antagonizing entities stronger than you are is a pretty basic instinct.
    - formerly_proven 6y ago
      > Not antagonizing entities stronger than you are is a pretty basic instinct. See, something insects don't get.
      - thwarted 6y ago
        Insects are stronger in number. That you kill one that is biting you or buzzing around your head doesn't matter.
        formerly_proven 6y ago
        Stealing food from humans and annoying them is a very easy way to get food for wasps. But if they do it for long enough, the humans might decide to find their nest and eradicate the entire colony. The suggestion in this thread is that orcas are intelligent enough to realize (on any level of consciousness) this being a possibility for them if they start to harm (or even just annoy) humans.
    - luckylion 6y ago
      They'd need a pretty abstract idea of strength though. The individual human isn't stronger than them at all, so they'd need to deduct that the fact that humans are using tools probably means they can also build weapons etc. Since manual whaling hasn't happened for quite a while, they'd need to communicate abstract concepts to their offspring to keep the memory alive. It's one thing to demonstrate to them how to synchronize dives to create a wave and flush a seal off of an ice sheet, it's quite another to explain the process of humans hunting them with ships and harpoons and indicating that humanity's technology has progressed.

dj_mc_merlin 6y ago

Fair point about the no known attacks. There's stories about orcas killing humans in many cultures that historically interacted with killers whales. > I believe you're over-estimating their intelligence. One of my favourite orca stories is the killers of Eden[0]. The wiki page is short and worth a read, but to summarize: a pod of whales learns to herd whales into a bay and alert humans to them. Humans harpoon them and the pod helps drag them back by pulling on the ropes. The carcass is left overnight for the pod, that eats its lips and tongue. Afterwards, the humans haul it back. Why would the orcas alert the humans unless they realized that the humans were responsible for the harpooning? Furthermore, just the act of slapping the river with water to attract attention is already quite advanced. And why did they only eat part of the whale (and always the same part)? Why did they never eat the humans? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killer_whales_of_Eden,_New_South_Wales https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killer_whales_of_Eden,_New_Sou...

luckylion 6y ago
I'm not trying to say that orcas aren't intelligent, they certainly are. We can cooperate with them, and they understand things, much like other dolphins do. If they weren't, you couldn't train them. I don't believe they're "if you eat that guy over there, the navy will come and hunt us down" smart though.
- andrewflnr 6y ago
  They don't need to have such a clear idea of the consequences to realize it's a bad idea. Not antagonizing entities stronger than you are is a pretty basic instinct.
  - formerly_proven 6y ago
    > Not antagonizing entities stronger than you are is a pretty basic instinct. See, something insects don't get.
    - thwarted 6y ago
      Insects are stronger in number. That you kill one that is biting you or buzzing around your head doesn't matter.
      - formerly_proven 6y ago
        Stealing food from humans and annoying them is a very easy way to get food for wasps. But if they do it for long enough, the humans might decide to find their nest and eradicate the entire colony. The suggestion in this thread is that orcas are intelligent enough to realize (on any level of consciousness) this being a possibility for them if they start to harm (or even just annoy) humans.
  - luckylion 6y ago
    They'd need a pretty abstract idea of strength though. The individual human isn't stronger than them at all, so they'd need to deduct that the fact that humans are using tools probably means they can also build weapons etc. Since manual whaling hasn't happened for quite a while, they'd need to communicate abstract concepts to their offspring to keep the memory alive. It's one thing to demonstrate to them how to synchronize dives to create a wave and flush a seal off of an ice sheet, it's quite another to explain the process of humans hunting them with ships and harpoons and indicating that humanity's technology has progressed.