4 ms·

Most developers are morons, and the rest are assholes

28 points by cookiestack 15y ago

wnoise 15y ago
Morons drive the creation of assholes. You need to be able to use the spec to push morons to stop being morons.
mgunes 15y ago
(2004)
JoachimSchipper 15y ago
Please do not editorialize titles.
- mooism2 15y ago
  It's not editorialising --- it's the first sentence from the article, and it gives us a better idea of the article content than the article's own title gives us.
  - JoachimSchipper 15y ago
    It's an article about specifications and how people get in trouble with them - "why specs matter" is totally clear, "Most developers are morons, and the rest are assholes" isn't.
    - mooism2 15y ago
      "Why specs matter" is clear about the ultimate point the article tries to make, but entirely fails to communicate the tone of writing it uses. "Most developers are morons, and the rest are assholes" tells you what the article is like to read. I expect some people will dismiss the article without following the link to read it based on that alone. That's good! (Other people will find themselves compelled to click...) But it doesn't communicate that the article is ultimately about specs, it's true. The submitter has chosen to emphasise a different aspect of the article than did the author. That's not editorialising. It's presenting the article differently for the different context of HN (as opposed to the context of Mark Pilgrim's blog). Editorialising would be if the submitted title was "Specs are useless because no-one reads them properly" or "Mark Pilgrim is a moron and an asshole". Both of them have an element of truth, but it is a stretch to get there from the article itself.
malux85 15y ago
We had one of these asshole developers ... one who would - exactly as the article says - follow the spec exactly, and when point to the spec when things went wrong. He had no sympathy, because he was just doing as he was told. We fixed him though. After one of his long rants about the spec, we told him that he was going to be tasked with writing the next spec. All of a sudden, he had the other asshole developers pointing to his spec It actually humbled him, and turned him into a good developer.
lhnz 15y ago
What if you're never given a spec.
- malux85 15y ago
  Communicate, communicate, communicate. The first thing you need to do is talk to your manager / boss / leader and explain why a spec is important for you and for him. Explain that if we have a spec then he wont have to deal with angry calls that the system doesn't do X,Y,Z. Explain that without a spec you'll be forced to assume. If you're the manager, then it's your job to explain to the customer why a spec is important. You've just gotta communicate my friend :) Managers, Team leaders and Clients (in my experience) are usually very good if you only communicate :) I listened to a really good audio book recently and it talked about "The importance of communication, either the conversations you're not having, or not having well" .. Chances are you as a developer are more than skilled enough to write the software, and your manager is more than capable of managing - but there's just a lack of (good) communication :) hope that helps
Tyrannosaurs 15y ago
Why do people even post this stuff? When I clicked on this I guessed that this was going to be on of the best click-whore titles I'd seen for a while sitting over the top of an article that was far more reasonable and intelligent. Turns out not - the title is a fair representation of the article. In it the author confesses that in the past he's been both a moron and an arsehole and having read the article I have no problem believing this. Sadly the rest of the piece is somewhat more questionable. I'm not going to bother talking about the contents of the article - it's too obviously wrong to warrant the attention (yes these people exist but they're not the majority or representative) - but I'd like to ask this question. If you're a developer who feels that everyone you've worked with is either an arsehole or a moron, what does it really say? Do you believe that this is the way the entire industry is (in which case do you really want to be working in it)? Or have you been particularly unlucky (in which case, really, what are the chances and shouldn't you look at your job selection)? Or is there perhaps something in your own attitude? (P.S. And yes specs matter in many cases but this article says little useful about why).
- Confusion 15y ago
  Why do people even post this stuff? If I had to venture a guess: venting. The article is not trying to be rational, reasonable or show any sense of perspective. Given other articles by the same author, I'm inclined to say this one simply was never meant to be posted to HN or other fora. Should he not have posted it at all? I'm unsure: it's his blog and he has a right to vent. Perhaps some readers know the context and think it is pretty funny. In any case, I don't expect he was being serious. The real question is: why does anyone bother to submit or, equally bad, upvote this? And then your question fully applies. My guess is it is being upvoted by people that do not actually have experience working in teams on 'specced' software. It's upvoted by people that imagine this is how it must be to implement a spec with a team.
  - Tyrannosaurs 15y ago
    Yes sorry, I meant submit rather than post. I get why someone would vent (though personally I see it as one of those rants which might have been better done as "write the entry, feel better, don't actually post").
mrspeaker 15y ago
I don't understand how people get to a point like this. Sure finding good devs is hard, but there are millions of us. You've always got choices (even in 2004) - and if you're not surrounded by good people then it's your own fault!
- kls 15y ago
  You know in a sense you are right, we have become a society of victims and blame layers. It is infections and you do have choices the problem is there are few great optimist left so many never see the choices due to constraints in their perception and apathy.
michaelpinto 15y ago
I knew if I waited around long enough that specs would come back in style! Back in the day we use to make fun of folks who "rolled up their selves and started writing code" — then web 2.0 happened and beta logos decorated every site. Of course I tend to do client focused work, so specs have a double value (although too many folks will say they read them when they haven't).

28 points by cookiestack 15y ago

wnoise 15y ago

Morons drive the creation of assholes. You need to be able to use the spec to push morons to stop being morons.

mgunes 15y ago

(2004)

JoachimSchipper 15y ago

Please do not editorialize titles.

mooism2 15y ago
It's not editorialising --- it's the first sentence from the article, and it gives us a better idea of the article content than the article's own title gives us.
- JoachimSchipper 15y ago
  It's an article about specifications and how people get in trouble with them - "why specs matter" is totally clear, "Most developers are morons, and the rest are assholes" isn't.
  - mooism2 15y ago
    "Why specs matter" is clear about the ultimate point the article tries to make, but entirely fails to communicate the tone of writing it uses. "Most developers are morons, and the rest are assholes" tells you what the article is like to read. I expect some people will dismiss the article without following the link to read it based on that alone. That's good! (Other people will find themselves compelled to click...) But it doesn't communicate that the article is ultimately about specs, it's true. The submitter has chosen to emphasise a different aspect of the article than did the author. That's not editorialising. It's presenting the article differently for the different context of HN (as opposed to the context of Mark Pilgrim's blog). Editorialising would be if the submitted title was "Specs are useless because no-one reads them properly" or "Mark Pilgrim is a moron and an asshole". Both of them have an element of truth, but it is a stretch to get there from the article itself.

malux85 15y ago

We had one of these asshole developers ... one who would - exactly as the article says - follow the spec exactly, and when point to the spec when things went wrong. He had no sympathy, because he was just doing as he was told. We fixed him though. After one of his long rants about the spec, we told him that he was going to be tasked with writing the next spec. All of a sudden, he had the other asshole developers pointing to his spec It actually humbled him, and turned him into a good developer.

lhnz 15y ago

What if you're never given a spec.

malux85 15y ago
Communicate, communicate, communicate. The first thing you need to do is talk to your manager / boss / leader and explain why a spec is important for you and for him. Explain that if we have a spec then he wont have to deal with angry calls that the system doesn't do X,Y,Z. Explain that without a spec you'll be forced to assume. If you're the manager, then it's your job to explain to the customer why a spec is important. You've just gotta communicate my friend :) Managers, Team leaders and Clients (in my experience) are usually very good if you only communicate :) I listened to a really good audio book recently and it talked about "The importance of communication, either the conversations you're not having, or not having well" .. Chances are you as a developer are more than skilled enough to write the software, and your manager is more than capable of managing - but there's just a lack of (good) communication :) hope that helps

Tyrannosaurs 15y ago

Why do people even post this stuff? When I clicked on this I guessed that this was going to be on of the best click-whore titles I'd seen for a while sitting over the top of an article that was far more reasonable and intelligent. Turns out not - the title is a fair representation of the article. In it the author confesses that in the past he's been both a moron and an arsehole and having read the article I have no problem believing this. Sadly the rest of the piece is somewhat more questionable. I'm not going to bother talking about the contents of the article - it's too obviously wrong to warrant the attention (yes these people exist but they're not the majority or representative) - but I'd like to ask this question. If you're a developer who feels that everyone you've worked with is either an arsehole or a moron, what does it really say? Do you believe that this is the way the entire industry is (in which case do you really want to be working in it)? Or have you been particularly unlucky (in which case, really, what are the chances and shouldn't you look at your job selection)? Or is there perhaps something in your own attitude? (P.S. And yes specs matter in many cases but this article says little useful about why).

Confusion 15y ago
Why do people even post this stuff? If I had to venture a guess: venting. The article is not trying to be rational, reasonable or show any sense of perspective. Given other articles by the same author, I'm inclined to say this one simply was never meant to be posted to HN or other fora. Should he not have posted it at all? I'm unsure: it's his blog and he has a right to vent. Perhaps some readers know the context and think it is pretty funny. In any case, I don't expect he was being serious. The real question is: why does anyone bother to submit or, equally bad, upvote this? And then your question fully applies. My guess is it is being upvoted by people that do not actually have experience working in teams on 'specced' software. It's upvoted by people that imagine this is how it must be to implement a spec with a team.
- Tyrannosaurs 15y ago
  Yes sorry, I meant submit rather than post. I get why someone would vent (though personally I see it as one of those rants which might have been better done as "write the entry, feel better, don't actually post").

mrspeaker 15y ago

I don't understand how people get to a point like this. Sure finding good devs is hard, but there are millions of us. You've always got choices (even in 2004) - and if you're not surrounded by good people then it's your own fault!

kls 15y ago
You know in a sense you are right, we have become a society of victims and blame layers. It is infections and you do have choices the problem is there are few great optimist left so many never see the choices due to constraints in their perception and apathy.

michaelpinto 15y ago

I knew if I waited around long enough that specs would come back in style! Back in the day we use to make fun of folks who "rolled up their selves and started writing code" — then web 2.0 happened and beta logos decorated every site. Of course I tend to do client focused work, so specs have a double value (although too many folks will say they read them when they haven't).