3 ms·

Ok - so we agree on a problem. Just to ask, what solution have humans found to replace dictators and kings apart from (weakly or strongly) elected parliaments

Ok - so we agree on a problem. Just to ask, what solution have humans found to replace dictators and kings apart from (weakly or strongly) elected parliaments ? Rome had two consuls (or three), but I am not sure that's a big step beyond one. I just think we need to find the right ways for democracy to evolve not just chuck it in the bin :-)

zepto 6y ago
Again, no argument from me, but also no argument from you that direct democracy would work as a form of corporate governance. Can you find even one example of where it has? The closest I am aware of is Mondragon, but Mondragon has almost no direct democracy - voting is for people rather than decisions.
- lifeisstillgood 6y ago
  As a brit I have recently learnt to be wary of direct democracy (ala referendums) but frankly I will take any form of democracy as a bastion against the mono-culture. Perhaps we can take heart from the media - https://www.ft.com/content/afe3386e-d3bb-11e4-a9d3-00144feab7de https://www.ft.com/content/afe3386e-d3bb-11e4-a9d3-00144feab... - The Guardian's editor was appointed following an indicative vote from staff. But I would suspect that appointed leaders and elected policies will be a much easier sell than the other way round. Any leader can happily say they always agreed with a policy forced on them. It's much harder to say you agree with them firing you. And I shall have to do some more research. Thank you for pushing
  - zepto 6y ago
    One argument would be that working for a business and not finding another job is inherently vote for the leadership.
    - lifeisstillgood 6y ago
      That sounds rather weak - the fact I have not left the country does not imply I have voted for Boris Johnson as PM. Although Trump could then claim that 11M card-less Mexicans who have not left the USA in November were actually voting for him, which would give him California in the Electoral College. In the end I do not see a way to imply someone's vote - one needs to actually count their vote in the normal way. I respect your position but I remain convinced that some form of democracy is needed in corporate life.
      - zepto 6y ago
        You must realize that leaving the country is not even remotely comparable to changing job. My argument may be weak for some other reason but this is not a valid one. It’s also worth mentioning that there are democratic workplaces. They are called cooperatives. Another example: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Lewis_Partnership https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Lewis_Partnership Relevant questions seem to be - why are they not more successful or widespread? Also, have you considered working for one?
        lifeisstillgood 6y ago
        Yes good point on the co-op. Relevant questions seem to be - why are they not more successful or widespread? The co-op store (similar food john lewis) sprang from the mid victorian co-operative movement where different models where tried out by wealthy philanthropists who essentially gave back huge amounts of their wealth to their workers I think that last sentence shows why it is not more widespread - perhaps we simply need to force companies to become co-op/ partnerships at a certain state of growth?
        zepto 6y ago
        By last sentence - you mean where I ask whether you have considered working for one?
        lifeisstillgood 6y ago

zepto 6y ago

Again, no argument from me, but also no argument from you that direct democracy would work as a form of corporate governance. Can you find even one example of where it has? The closest I am aware of is Mondragon, but Mondragon has almost no direct democracy - voting is for people rather than decisions.

lifeisstillgood 6y ago
As a brit I have recently learnt to be wary of direct democracy (ala referendums) but frankly I will take any form of democracy as a bastion against the mono-culture. Perhaps we can take heart from the media - https://www.ft.com/content/afe3386e-d3bb-11e4-a9d3-00144feab7de https://www.ft.com/content/afe3386e-d3bb-11e4-a9d3-00144feab... - The Guardian's editor was appointed following an indicative vote from staff. But I would suspect that appointed leaders and elected policies will be a much easier sell than the other way round. Any leader can happily say they always agreed with a policy forced on them. It's much harder to say you agree with them firing you. And I shall have to do some more research. Thank you for pushing
- zepto 6y ago
  One argument would be that working for a business and not finding another job is inherently vote for the leadership.
  - lifeisstillgood 6y ago
    That sounds rather weak - the fact I have not left the country does not imply I have voted for Boris Johnson as PM. Although Trump could then claim that 11M card-less Mexicans who have not left the USA in November were actually voting for him, which would give him California in the Electoral College. In the end I do not see a way to imply someone's vote - one needs to actually count their vote in the normal way. I respect your position but I remain convinced that some form of democracy is needed in corporate life.
    - zepto 6y ago
      You must realize that leaving the country is not even remotely comparable to changing job. My argument may be weak for some other reason but this is not a valid one. It’s also worth mentioning that there are democratic workplaces. They are called cooperatives. Another example: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Lewis_Partnership https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Lewis_Partnership Relevant questions seem to be - why are they not more successful or widespread? Also, have you considered working for one?
      - lifeisstillgood 6y ago
        Yes good point on the co-op. Relevant questions seem to be - why are they not more successful or widespread? The co-op store (similar food john lewis) sprang from the mid victorian co-operative movement where different models where tried out by wealthy philanthropists who essentially gave back huge amounts of their wealth to their workers I think that last sentence shows why it is not more widespread - perhaps we simply need to force companies to become co-op/ partnerships at a certain state of growth?
        zepto 6y ago
        By last sentence - you mean where I ask whether you have considered working for one?
        lifeisstillgood 6y ago