7 ms·

Apparently, owning a car is the easiest way to commit social suicide in Vauban — That is the spirit unfortunately. Unfortunately, because once you allow to deg

Apparently, owning a car is the easiest way to commit social suicide in Vauban — That is the spirit unfortunately. Unfortunately, because once you allow to degrade strangers/neighbors in public for something malign like that, it doesn’t stop there. Because of this Vauban is not always admired, rather sometimes regarded as tax payer funded dystopia for upper class people to live in. E.g. your amount of thrash you can dispose per month is highly regulated, via communal key-card opened dumpsters. Once you’ve reached your threshold, the dumpsters stay closed. If you ever where to forget, say, your toddlers diapers you have two options: Enjoy the smell for the remaining time period or brace for the walk of shame of asking your neighbors to forgive your sin, alleviate your family from the smell and selflessly take in your diapers. Rest assured that this selflessness will at least come with an inquiry of why you aren‘t using reusable diapers in the first place. Alas, people who are annoyed by this leave, with the share of those who think such behavior is ok ever increases.

prox 6y ago
I think such behaviour is ok, but that’s because I feel that is what it means to be socially invested. But I also recognize that for other countries this might seem restrictive or weird (as in why would you do that?) In practice, and I currently live in a socially cohesive neighborhood, in practice it is just very laidback and it’s about helping eachother out and live and let live.
- bartread 6y ago
  As an example of the cultural difference you're talking about: I don't think this is social cohesion. This is highly intrusive: people interfering with other peoples' lives, constantly scrutinising and fault-finding, and sticking their noses in where they don't belong. To me it sounds absolutely intolerable.
  - luckylion 6y ago
    > To me it sounds absolutely intolerable. I thought of Sartre's No Exit. But for the type that would go around casting judgement on others for religious infractions in a previous age, it must be paradise.
    - bartread 6y ago
      Yeah, for a Pharisee, it would very much be their jam.
  - AniseAbyss 6y ago
    We live in a society. Although in some countries this very fact is heavily contested. Too much freedom can be a bad thing. Especially when the government is chronically underfunded to take over the responsibilities.
  - hugi 6y ago
    I find car owners higly intrusive, driving huge, noisy, polluting machines and demanding I provide them with expensive, highly disrupting infrastructure. Cultural difference, I guess.
    - bartread 6y ago
      What are you talking about? Yes, cars are covered in the article, but if you look at the parent and GP posts in this thread - the ones I've responded to - we're clearly talking about wider aspects of living in one particular quarter.
    - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
      As someone living in Germany, I also found cars in the city to be shit but they're a necessary evil for those who need to commute long distances not covered by quick and frequent public transport(like subways) since it's not like the city/government will build bike paths and public transportation to fit everyone's home2work route. There's a bus to my workplace but it's every 30 minutes, so if I miss it, that's 30 minutes of my day wasted waiting for the next one. Or I could get a car and get there whenever I can/want and have more free time for myself at home. The choice wasn't difficult.
- perl4ever 6y ago
  It sounds similar to what's known as an Home Owner Associations in the US. It seems very widespread on the internet for people to complain about HOAs. There's the superficial hatred, and then there's people who will tell you about the history and who seem to have deeper reasons for their dislike.
Fishysoup 6y ago
This has been my experience with Germany / Switzerland as well. Very punishment-based
- saiya-jin 6y ago
  Don't know which part of Suisse you talk about, but for me, living in Zurich, Lausanne and Geneva I never experienced even a glimpse of what OP mentions. Yes, you can't behave like an arrogant a-hole, people will complain and call services/cops on you. But if you follow few simple rules which can be summed up as 'be respectful of others and laws in the country', you can have a great time since respect goes both ways.
  - michaelscott 6y ago
    I understand what parent is saying and this Freiburg example is a good one: there are going to be situations and times (such as the birth of a newborn) where following strictly to the rules (you have a limited amount of trash to dispose) just isn't viable or even possible. Anything that deviates from the norm and established rules, even slightly, is at least frowned upon and at most results in a fine or some other material punishment in Switzerland (I can't speak to Germany).
    - fluffy87 6y ago
      No you are wrong. People living there have had children or have children. Everybody knows when making an exception is ok or not, or when the allocated trash associated to a household must be increase. The assumption that people living there are intolerant of babies and families is false.
      - saiya-jin 6y ago
        On top of that there wasn't, and for Geneva isn't, any allocation of trash or similar stupidity. When I was moving out of Lausanne, they introduced special garbage bags that were supposed to be used (for our bin it was 2chf per piece), to pay for recycling. Avoiding those would be fined if found out. But if I threw out 200 of them per month, that would be my own thing. Nobody frowns, complains, cares or anything. People just go about their lives in pretty sensible ways. In Geneva, I can throw trash in Migros plastic bags if I want, nobody cares. No clue about current Zurich, 10 years ago I didn't pay anything neither.
kleiba 6y ago
It would make sense to take special considerations into account, such that e.g., families with babies have a higher garbage quota than others. Where I live, the town actually implements a variation of this: if you have a child under 3, you can apply for a "diaper subsidy" to your garbage fee, offered by the town, because they assume that you will need more bins emptied than other households (in general, you pay for how many times your bin gets emptied).
dmos62 6y ago
It's a cultural thing. Some people can't imagine living wihout a car, others can't imagine using disposable diapers, others can't imagine not forcing women to wear a veil. Or, for example, is your trash production a private affair, or is it a communal responsibility, subject to scrutiny? If you're flexible you can set up your outlook however you think is best. And there are of course prevailing mindsets, depending on where you are. For me, Vauban seems closer to ideal than a lot of other places. I think often people, who find themselves closer to mainstream, find themselves judged, or fearing judgment, from the marginal "progressives" (and vice versa). I think it's normal for this mainstream-marginal tension to exist, and it's independent of whatever the distinguishing opinions are. If the tension is getting bad, it's just a symptom of people having trouble socialising; capacity for variety is a major societal health indicator. Doesn't really say anything about the actual topics discussed, like eco-friendliness in this case.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- margo209320 6y ago
  > not forcing women to wear a veil How the fuck does THAT fit with the other examples you gave? The word "force" in there should make it pretty clear that it's not ok or just a matter of opinion.
  - stevenhuang 6y ago
    > It's a cultural thing. It was just another example of cultural behavior. It was not a normative statement.
  - hh3k0 6y ago
    That's easy, just paraphrase owning a car. I'm thinking something along the lines of "force the generations that are coming after you to live in a dystopian hellscape because you preferred comfort." Now it fits quite nicely.
  - M277 6y ago
    The point is that people have different outlooks and views, and you shouldn't force yours on them (or vice versa). Your list of what is wrong is not necessarily someone else's list of what is wrong. Similarly, your list of right is not necessarily someone else's list of what is right. For many of these people, it's not a matter of "force". They (including women) accept it as the normal. (Disclaimer: I live in Egypt, which is a Muslim country. However, it's much less strict compared to the others.)
atesti 6y ago
>E.g. your amount of thrash you can dispose per month is highly regulated, via communal key-card opened dumpsters. Once you’ve reached your threshold, the dumpsters stay closed. Do you have any source for that? I find it fascinating, but was not able to find any link about this, only that the student dorm does not have "bio"-dumpsters for compostable garbage.
- woodpanel 6y ago
  https://youtu.be/rdUuJk-nDyk https://youtu.be/rdUuJk-nDyk It’s the most televised segment about Vauban. It takes some time until it gets to the trash bins. You have to get passed the segment of the professor talking about „communal self-Control“ if a neighbor dares to open his windows, because of the ecological burden said neighbor would unload on others. But the whole thing is worth watching. Edit: It’s around minute 10.
  - josefx 6y ago
    That says that you have to pay extra if you want to throw in more. Nothing about having to ask neighbors. There is also always the alternative of just buying a trash bag from the city and just filling that up. The part about neighbors keeping watch over open windows however is hilariously dystopian. Especially given my own experience with passive buildings that completely failed to live up to the hype, with air circulation that was a health hazard..
titzer 6y ago
> Enjoy the smell for the remaining time period You know, from the community's perspective, your comment could come off as incredibly self-centered and entitled. Why is it the community's responsibility to dispose of endless amounts of waste that you and your little poop monsters produce? All of those services require the community to do work for you. The social contract is more maleable than you realize. I am not sure you want to accept that it can be renegotiated because like most of us, you've accepted an entire lifetime's worth of Western programming telling you you get to do whatever you want and everybody else has got to just deal with it, and if they have a problem with that then it's some kind of horrible encroachment. But the reality is that people have always lived in communities that have a delicately negotiated social contract and ways of shaming, shunning, and even ex-communicating individuals who don't conform. The social contract is a negotiation, not your absolute right to do whatever you want and have people clean up after you. > Alas, people who are annoyed by this leave. I'd say that's WAI. It doesn't sound like a lot of fun to live there. So don't. I probably wouldn't either. But TBH it's not a lot of fun to live next to trash monkeys and junk hoarders, and communities absolutely do kick such people out.
LockAndLol 6y ago
> Apparently, owning a car is the easiest way to commit social suicide in Vauban — That is the spirit unfortunately. That's quite possibly the most American response you could provide. Though Germans value their cars (sometimes more than their wives), German society is quite focused on public transport and the availability thereof. Furthermore, distancing ourselves from personal cars is among one of the best things we can do for the environment. We are experiencing the effects of car ownership right now with bad air / smog, traffic jams, noise and (very avoidable) accidents. Engines might have heralded a new age and while cars do represent transportational freedom, it's time we move away from them if we want to exist in a livable world.
- woodpanel 6y ago
  That's quite possibly the most American response you could provide. Neither the Author is American, nor am I. Sometimes it seems, though, racial stereotypes are perfectly acceptable...

prox 6y ago

I think such behaviour is ok, but that’s because I feel that is what it means to be socially invested. But I also recognize that for other countries this might seem restrictive or weird (as in why would you do that?) In practice, and I currently live in a socially cohesive neighborhood, in practice it is just very laidback and it’s about helping eachother out and live and let live.

bartread 6y ago
As an example of the cultural difference you're talking about: I don't think this is social cohesion. This is highly intrusive: people interfering with other peoples' lives, constantly scrutinising and fault-finding, and sticking their noses in where they don't belong. To me it sounds absolutely intolerable.
- luckylion 6y ago
  > To me it sounds absolutely intolerable. I thought of Sartre's No Exit. But for the type that would go around casting judgement on others for religious infractions in a previous age, it must be paradise.
  - bartread 6y ago
    Yeah, for a Pharisee, it would very much be their jam.
- AniseAbyss 6y ago
  We live in a society. Although in some countries this very fact is heavily contested. Too much freedom can be a bad thing. Especially when the government is chronically underfunded to take over the responsibilities.
- hugi 6y ago
  I find car owners higly intrusive, driving huge, noisy, polluting machines and demanding I provide them with expensive, highly disrupting infrastructure. Cultural difference, I guess.
  - bartread 6y ago
    What are you talking about? Yes, cars are covered in the article, but if you look at the parent and GP posts in this thread - the ones I've responded to - we're clearly talking about wider aspects of living in one particular quarter.
  - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
    As someone living in Germany, I also found cars in the city to be shit but they're a necessary evil for those who need to commute long distances not covered by quick and frequent public transport(like subways) since it's not like the city/government will build bike paths and public transportation to fit everyone's home2work route. There's a bus to my workplace but it's every 30 minutes, so if I miss it, that's 30 minutes of my day wasted waiting for the next one. Or I could get a car and get there whenever I can/want and have more free time for myself at home. The choice wasn't difficult.
perl4ever 6y ago
It sounds similar to what's known as an Home Owner Associations in the US. It seems very widespread on the internet for people to complain about HOAs. There's the superficial hatred, and then there's people who will tell you about the history and who seem to have deeper reasons for their dislike.

Fishysoup 6y ago

This has been my experience with Germany / Switzerland as well. Very punishment-based

saiya-jin 6y ago
Don't know which part of Suisse you talk about, but for me, living in Zurich, Lausanne and Geneva I never experienced even a glimpse of what OP mentions. Yes, you can't behave like an arrogant a-hole, people will complain and call services/cops on you. But if you follow few simple rules which can be summed up as 'be respectful of others and laws in the country', you can have a great time since respect goes both ways.
- michaelscott 6y ago
  I understand what parent is saying and this Freiburg example is a good one: there are going to be situations and times (such as the birth of a newborn) where following strictly to the rules (you have a limited amount of trash to dispose) just isn't viable or even possible. Anything that deviates from the norm and established rules, even slightly, is at least frowned upon and at most results in a fine or some other material punishment in Switzerland (I can't speak to Germany).
  - fluffy87 6y ago
    No you are wrong. People living there have had children or have children. Everybody knows when making an exception is ok or not, or when the allocated trash associated to a household must be increase. The assumption that people living there are intolerant of babies and families is false.
    - saiya-jin 6y ago
      On top of that there wasn't, and for Geneva isn't, any allocation of trash or similar stupidity. When I was moving out of Lausanne, they introduced special garbage bags that were supposed to be used (for our bin it was 2chf per piece), to pay for recycling. Avoiding those would be fined if found out. But if I threw out 200 of them per month, that would be my own thing. Nobody frowns, complains, cares or anything. People just go about their lives in pretty sensible ways. In Geneva, I can throw trash in Migros plastic bags if I want, nobody cares. No clue about current Zurich, 10 years ago I didn't pay anything neither.

kleiba 6y ago

It would make sense to take special considerations into account, such that e.g., families with babies have a higher garbage quota than others. Where I live, the town actually implements a variation of this: if you have a child under 3, you can apply for a "diaper subsidy" to your garbage fee, offered by the town, because they assume that you will need more bins emptied than other households (in general, you pay for how many times your bin gets emptied).

dmos62 6y ago

It's a cultural thing. Some people can't imagine living wihout a car, others can't imagine using disposable diapers, others can't imagine not forcing women to wear a veil. Or, for example, is your trash production a private affair, or is it a communal responsibility, subject to scrutiny? If you're flexible you can set up your outlook however you think is best. And there are of course prevailing mindsets, depending on where you are. For me, Vauban seems closer to ideal than a lot of other places. I think often people, who find themselves closer to mainstream, find themselves judged, or fearing judgment, from the marginal "progressives" (and vice versa). I think it's normal for this mainstream-marginal tension to exist, and it's independent of whatever the distinguishing opinions are. If the tension is getting bad, it's just a symptom of people having trouble socialising; capacity for variety is a major societal health indicator. Doesn't really say anything about the actual topics discussed, like eco-friendliness in this case.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
margo209320 6y ago
> not forcing women to wear a veil How the fuck does THAT fit with the other examples you gave? The word "force" in there should make it pretty clear that it's not ok or just a matter of opinion.
- stevenhuang 6y ago
  > It's a cultural thing. It was just another example of cultural behavior. It was not a normative statement.
- hh3k0 6y ago
  That's easy, just paraphrase owning a car. I'm thinking something along the lines of "force the generations that are coming after you to live in a dystopian hellscape because you preferred comfort." Now it fits quite nicely.
- M277 6y ago
  The point is that people have different outlooks and views, and you shouldn't force yours on them (or vice versa). Your list of what is wrong is not necessarily someone else's list of what is wrong. Similarly, your list of right is not necessarily someone else's list of what is right. For many of these people, it's not a matter of "force". They (including women) accept it as the normal. (Disclaimer: I live in Egypt, which is a Muslim country. However, it's much less strict compared to the others.)

atesti 6y ago

>E.g. your amount of thrash you can dispose per month is highly regulated, via communal key-card opened dumpsters. Once you’ve reached your threshold, the dumpsters stay closed. Do you have any source for that? I find it fascinating, but was not able to find any link about this, only that the student dorm does not have "bio"-dumpsters for compostable garbage.

woodpanel 6y ago
https://youtu.be/rdUuJk-nDyk https://youtu.be/rdUuJk-nDyk It’s the most televised segment about Vauban. It takes some time until it gets to the trash bins. You have to get passed the segment of the professor talking about „communal self-Control“ if a neighbor dares to open his windows, because of the ecological burden said neighbor would unload on others. But the whole thing is worth watching. Edit: It’s around minute 10.
- josefx 6y ago
  That says that you have to pay extra if you want to throw in more. Nothing about having to ask neighbors. There is also always the alternative of just buying a trash bag from the city and just filling that up. The part about neighbors keeping watch over open windows however is hilariously dystopian. Especially given my own experience with passive buildings that completely failed to live up to the hype, with air circulation that was a health hazard..

titzer 6y ago

> Enjoy the smell for the remaining time period You know, from the community's perspective, your comment could come off as incredibly self-centered and entitled. Why is it the community's responsibility to dispose of endless amounts of waste that you and your little poop monsters produce? All of those services require the community to do work for you. The social contract is more maleable than you realize. I am not sure you want to accept that it can be renegotiated because like most of us, you've accepted an entire lifetime's worth of Western programming telling you you get to do whatever you want and everybody else has got to just deal with it, and if they have a problem with that then it's some kind of horrible encroachment. But the reality is that people have always lived in communities that have a delicately negotiated social contract and ways of shaming, shunning, and even ex-communicating individuals who don't conform. The social contract is a negotiation, not your absolute right to do whatever you want and have people clean up after you. > Alas, people who are annoyed by this leave. I'd say that's WAI. It doesn't sound like a lot of fun to live there. So don't. I probably wouldn't either. But TBH it's not a lot of fun to live next to trash monkeys and junk hoarders, and communities absolutely do kick such people out.

LockAndLol 6y ago

> Apparently, owning a car is the easiest way to commit social suicide in Vauban — That is the spirit unfortunately. That's quite possibly the most American response you could provide. Though Germans value their cars (sometimes more than their wives), German society is quite focused on public transport and the availability thereof. Furthermore, distancing ourselves from personal cars is among one of the best things we can do for the environment. We are experiencing the effects of car ownership right now with bad air / smog, traffic jams, noise and (very avoidable) accidents. Engines might have heralded a new age and while cars do represent transportational freedom, it's time we move away from them if we want to exist in a livable world.

woodpanel 6y ago
That's quite possibly the most American response you could provide. Neither the Author is American, nor am I. Sometimes it seems, though, racial stereotypes are perfectly acceptable...