6 ms·

Most of these are what one might call "first order effects" - i.e. factors immediately associatable with work location. For prolonged situation, higher order ef

by sriku 6y ago

Most of these are what one might call "first order effects" - i.e. factors immediately associatable with work location. For prolonged situation, higher order effects are going to become more important. Here are some candidates - 1. Improvement in city air quality due to reduced commute - road and flight. 2. Erosion of "social credits" over time due to lower bandwidth interactions when remote. 3. Cumulative impact of serendipitous but significant learning arising from in-person interactions. 4. Impact on the body - prolonged unmoderated sitting in bad postures, eye strain due to constant staring into the screen, bad eating habits, etc. 5. Reduction in sense of belonging / identity / cohesiveness as the "molecules" that make up a cell can move more freely through the "cell boundary". 6. Impact on cognitive development during early childhood - due to school-from-home and lack of social interactions. Joint family homes are great to counter this! 7. Eroding knowledge and awareness of local geography due to reduced travel. Reduced attachment here can lead to apathy when local environs get trashed.

ink_13 6y ago
> Impact on the body - prolonged unmoderated sitting in bad postures Hey, this is me! I developed tendonitis in the shoulders from sitting in a lounge chair all day, and now I work with a physiotherapist who gave me funny looking exercises I do twice a day to retrain my body to get my hands behind my back (and other forms of shoulder mobility). Ergo is not a joke, friends.
- Izikiel43 6y ago
  Can confirm, after 9 months in my job I switched from regular keyboard and mouse to ergo versions as my right hand was killing me. Now I’m getting an ergo trackball too.
- cik 6y ago
  For years, everyone I know has made fun of me for the extreme ergo choices I've made in my workspaces, based on my needs. I've had a standing desk for over a decade, and I never sit down - purely because that works for me. I know someone else with the same setup, because at 4'11, she finally gets a desk she can lower to the proper height. I've been using the right keyboard/pointer combination for me since 2000, and I'll always continue to do so. Much like offices, there's no one size fits all - we really need to drop this idea.
  - HenryBemis 6y ago
    Standind desks rock!! And you get the added bonus of wanted to minimize the (mostly unpaid) overtime!
himinlomax 6y ago
> bad eating habits I have much better food at home than whatever shit I can buy at or near the office.
- orthoxerox 6y ago
  My mom has been working from her kitchen as that was the only room in her flat with a table. She's gained a lot of weight due to that. I told her to just buy the cheapest ugliest desk, but she wanted something that would look good in her living room. Now she has to buy a whole new wardrobe.
- Viliam1234 6y ago
  > I have much better food at home And it's probably also cheaper. For 5 € I can either buy a small lunch for myself, or cook for the entire family. With less salt, and more vegetables.
morsch 6y ago
No offense, but number 7 sounds ridiculous to me. What kind of awareness of local geography do people even cultivate on a 40 minute commute? You're going for speed and consistency, not novelty and aesthetics. You see only a tiny amount of environs on your commute (most of it non local), and I'm not sure people develop that kind of relationship with the neighborhood at mile 38/49 that they'd care if it's trashed, whatever that means and however they'd notice. I've had both long and short commutes, and I don't understand what you're talking about.
Xelbair 6y ago
>4. Impact on the body - prolonged unmoderated sitting in bad postures, eye strain due to constant staring into the screen, bad eating habits, etc. I actually lost weight and improved my posture when WFH, and i do have better eating habbits now(being able to cook a warm not pre-ready meal for breakfast is a godsend)
- dorfsmay 6y ago
  This! Also trading the time wasted commuting for exercising.
- hanselot 6y ago
  I can squeeze in more sleep than before, not having to travel in is a solid extra half hour I was losing to traffic. It would be 45 but I subtract time for getting ready at home. More sleep is good, I barely get 5 hours as it is.
dlkf 6y ago
> For prolonged situation, higher order effects are going to become more important. More important for what? And for whom? Someone who just shaved 100% off of their 70-minute commute probably doesn't give a fuck that their awareness of the "local geography" (see: trash-draped blackberry bushes on the highway shoulder) is "eroding." Some of your points are legit (particularly 6), but your dismissal of what you call "first order effects" is essentially just proving OP's meta-point about the terms in which the discussion is being held.
- amw-zero 6y ago
  I found their overall response to be thoughtful and objective, and painted an overview of the situation. I found your response to hone in on one detail and contribute nothing useful to the conversation.
- sriku 6y ago
  "more important" than they are for short stints of the lockdown intervention. I'm not dismissing first order effects. They are important. However higher order effects are where feedback cycles usually reside (ex: whats happening with climate change). So ignoring them is not a good idea even if during the initial phases it might seem like obsessing over details. In poorer countries, we can't ignore the risk of people dying due to hunger triggered by lockdown for covid19, for ex. Public policy is hard and chock full of higher order effects. Common mental habits of super focused problem solvers don't help and can be downright bad to address such problems (ref: Dietrich Dorner's revealing book "The logic of failure"). Around my locality (Chennai, India) it is a very compelling argument that lack of awareness of local geography can be behind the dire water supply situation. For example, all localities with the name "pakkam" were originally in the vicinity of large water bodies .. nearly none of which are around today. Many localities were named after the dominant vegetation in the area, which you won't see any signs of today. Yeah the commute is probably not going to help much because the commuters will likely be on their phones or cursing the increased traffic due to the need to be in offices. Feedback loops start that way.
  - asdfasgasdgasdg 6y ago
eecc 6y ago
Also, office buildings are rented from realtor investors and this big fat chunk of real estate is looking extremely superfluous and vulnerable right now
Nursie 6y ago
> Impact on the body - prolonged unmoderated sitting in bad postures, eye strain due to constant staring into the screen, bad eating habits, etc. Yep, offices have a terrible impact on people. Working from home gives you the opportunity to eat better, have far fewer snacks thrust in your face, and to get.out and exercise at lunch. I spend much more time in my local environs now I don't have to travel away from them each day.
maremp 6y ago
Most of the points make sense, but this one does not > Impact on the body - prolonged unmoderated sitting in bad postures, eye strain due to constant staring into the screen, bad eating habits, etc. How does WFH change how you sit and the eye strain? You’re doing the same work, what changed? IMO having a good office setup (chair, device, screen, room lighting) is a must for any WFH position, but especially if it’s full-time. Also for me, the food is better because in the office I used to eat snacks and go out in restaurants or fast foods. Now I mostly make food at home, and with the benefit of s garden have home-grown vegetables. So I eat better and spend less, plus I cut down the crap food from couple times a week to a few times in a month. As I see it, the argument 4) applies only with refusing to invest into a proper working environment setup and with the lack of discipline. But I hardly believe someone with the lack of discipline would eat any better in the office. And I’m taking this from my past experience.
- p_l 6y ago
  Most people don't have good WFH setup, that's one thing. Two, WFH can mean less interruptions requiring you to move, resulting in far more sedentary behaviour than normal office work, even if you assume no difference in movement from commute.
  - noahtallen 6y ago
    Competitive distributed companies already pay for your home office setup, and many people opt for better chairs and desks they would likely get in a normal office. I think for companies to stay competitive in a WFH environment, they will have to offer similar benefits. The other point I agree with :)
- LdSGSgvupDV 6y ago
  Agreed. For my situation, my home is better than office where could not code in standing (we don't have such culture) and has no place to walk around for thinking. And, at home, I could make lunch healthier with balanced nutrition when there are no good restaurants near my company.
- GFischer 6y ago

by sriku 6y ago

ink_13 6y ago

> Impact on the body - prolonged unmoderated sitting in bad postures Hey, this is me! I developed tendonitis in the shoulders from sitting in a lounge chair all day, and now I work with a physiotherapist who gave me funny looking exercises I do twice a day to retrain my body to get my hands behind my back (and other forms of shoulder mobility). Ergo is not a joke, friends.

Izikiel43 6y ago
Can confirm, after 9 months in my job I switched from regular keyboard and mouse to ergo versions as my right hand was killing me. Now I’m getting an ergo trackball too.
cik 6y ago
For years, everyone I know has made fun of me for the extreme ergo choices I've made in my workspaces, based on my needs. I've had a standing desk for over a decade, and I never sit down - purely because that works for me. I know someone else with the same setup, because at 4'11, she finally gets a desk she can lower to the proper height. I've been using the right keyboard/pointer combination for me since 2000, and I'll always continue to do so. Much like offices, there's no one size fits all - we really need to drop this idea.
- HenryBemis 6y ago
  Standind desks rock!! And you get the added bonus of wanted to minimize the (mostly unpaid) overtime!

himinlomax 6y ago

> bad eating habits I have much better food at home than whatever shit I can buy at or near the office.

orthoxerox 6y ago
My mom has been working from her kitchen as that was the only room in her flat with a table. She's gained a lot of weight due to that. I told her to just buy the cheapest ugliest desk, but she wanted something that would look good in her living room. Now she has to buy a whole new wardrobe.
Viliam1234 6y ago
> I have much better food at home And it's probably also cheaper. For 5 € I can either buy a small lunch for myself, or cook for the entire family. With less salt, and more vegetables.

morsch 6y ago

No offense, but number 7 sounds ridiculous to me. What kind of awareness of local geography do people even cultivate on a 40 minute commute? You're going for speed and consistency, not novelty and aesthetics. You see only a tiny amount of environs on your commute (most of it non local), and I'm not sure people develop that kind of relationship with the neighborhood at mile 38/49 that they'd care if it's trashed, whatever that means and however they'd notice. I've had both long and short commutes, and I don't understand what you're talking about.

Xelbair 6y ago

>4. Impact on the body - prolonged unmoderated sitting in bad postures, eye strain due to constant staring into the screen, bad eating habits, etc. I actually lost weight and improved my posture when WFH, and i do have better eating habbits now(being able to cook a warm not pre-ready meal for breakfast is a godsend)

dorfsmay 6y ago
This! Also trading the time wasted commuting for exercising.
hanselot 6y ago
I can squeeze in more sleep than before, not having to travel in is a solid extra half hour I was losing to traffic. It would be 45 but I subtract time for getting ready at home. More sleep is good, I barely get 5 hours as it is.

dlkf 6y ago

> For prolonged situation, higher order effects are going to become more important. More important for what? And for whom? Someone who just shaved 100% off of their 70-minute commute probably doesn't give a fuck that their awareness of the "local geography" (see: trash-draped blackberry bushes on the highway shoulder) is "eroding." Some of your points are legit (particularly 6), but your dismissal of what you call "first order effects" is essentially just proving OP's meta-point about the terms in which the discussion is being held.

amw-zero 6y ago
I found their overall response to be thoughtful and objective, and painted an overview of the situation. I found your response to hone in on one detail and contribute nothing useful to the conversation.
sriku 6y ago
"more important" than they are for short stints of the lockdown intervention. I'm not dismissing first order effects. They are important. However higher order effects are where feedback cycles usually reside (ex: whats happening with climate change). So ignoring them is not a good idea even if during the initial phases it might seem like obsessing over details. In poorer countries, we can't ignore the risk of people dying due to hunger triggered by lockdown for covid19, for ex. Public policy is hard and chock full of higher order effects. Common mental habits of super focused problem solvers don't help and can be downright bad to address such problems (ref: Dietrich Dorner's revealing book "The logic of failure"). Around my locality (Chennai, India) it is a very compelling argument that lack of awareness of local geography can be behind the dire water supply situation. For example, all localities with the name "pakkam" were originally in the vicinity of large water bodies .. nearly none of which are around today. Many localities were named after the dominant vegetation in the area, which you won't see any signs of today. Yeah the commute is probably not going to help much because the commuters will likely be on their phones or cursing the increased traffic due to the need to be in offices. Feedback loops start that way.
- asdfasgasdgasdg 6y ago

eecc 6y ago

Also, office buildings are rented from realtor investors and this big fat chunk of real estate is looking extremely superfluous and vulnerable right now

Nursie 6y ago

> Impact on the body - prolonged unmoderated sitting in bad postures, eye strain due to constant staring into the screen, bad eating habits, etc. Yep, offices have a terrible impact on people. Working from home gives you the opportunity to eat better, have far fewer snacks thrust in your face, and to get.out and exercise at lunch. I spend much more time in my local environs now I don't have to travel away from them each day.

maremp 6y ago

Most of the points make sense, but this one does not > Impact on the body - prolonged unmoderated sitting in bad postures, eye strain due to constant staring into the screen, bad eating habits, etc. How does WFH change how you sit and the eye strain? You’re doing the same work, what changed? IMO having a good office setup (chair, device, screen, room lighting) is a must for any WFH position, but especially if it’s full-time. Also for me, the food is better because in the office I used to eat snacks and go out in restaurants or fast foods. Now I mostly make food at home, and with the benefit of s garden have home-grown vegetables. So I eat better and spend less, plus I cut down the crap food from couple times a week to a few times in a month. As I see it, the argument 4) applies only with refusing to invest into a proper working environment setup and with the lack of discipline. But I hardly believe someone with the lack of discipline would eat any better in the office. And I’m taking this from my past experience.

p_l 6y ago
Most people don't have good WFH setup, that's one thing. Two, WFH can mean less interruptions requiring you to move, resulting in far more sedentary behaviour than normal office work, even if you assume no difference in movement from commute.
- noahtallen 6y ago
  Competitive distributed companies already pay for your home office setup, and many people opt for better chairs and desks they would likely get in a normal office. I think for companies to stay competitive in a WFH environment, they will have to offer similar benefits. The other point I agree with :)
LdSGSgvupDV 6y ago
Agreed. For my situation, my home is better than office where could not code in standing (we don't have such culture) and has no place to walk around for thinking. And, at home, I could make lunch healthier with balanced nutrition when there are no good restaurants near my company.
GFischer 6y ago