5 ms·

I think it remains a valid question though. What if we had handled the unemployment by creating infrastructure jobs instead of universal handouts? That has the

by Taek 6y ago

I think it remains a valid question though. What if we had handled the unemployment by creating infrastructure jobs instead of universal handouts? That has the added benefit of increasing the productive output of our economy.

untog 6y ago
It isn’t really all that valid in terms of the $1.2k payout. That was at the height of the pandemic, you absolutely didn’t want to have people out working in infrastructure jobs at that point, you wanted them to isolate at home. But the broader question, could/should the US use this moment of mass unemployment to create infrastructure jobs: IMO, yes. But it’ll never happen because someone will say the word “socialism” and it’ll immediately become politically unimaginable.
ultramundane8 6y ago
Could you elaborate on a plan (of course a really rough sketch) for "creating infrastructure jobs" during a global pandemic? I agree with the premise, but I would like to know how to accomplish something like this. Especially if you have domain knowledge, it could be enlightening to the HN readership. There are a lot of accomplished people who read these forums, and it would be cool to see a seed get planted.
- conductr 6y ago
  Need an unemployment check? Help build a bridge, road, dam, etc. In my mind it’s super simple. Money for labor. Problem is, most Americans would revolt if you asked them to break a sweat.
  - petre 6y ago
    Not every unemployed person could operate a buldozer. What would you have them do, lay bricks? Train them to use heavy machinery after working in hospitality services? Germany does this with some amount of succes but I don't know how they do it. German socialism seems to work at the expense of a zero point growth figure. They still pay the solidarity tax for East Germany.
    - conductr 6y ago
      Yes I actually would do this. Why can’t they lay bricks? Would they rather starve? There would need to be some training component for several jobs (bulldozer driver) but I think there could be a job that’s right for most. This is pretty similar to what the military does I believe, you get a job based on aptitude and such. I don’t know if it’s the perfect solution but it feels more appropriate than our current approach. I don’t know much about the German way, I just know we pay for idle bodies while we have a lot of infrastructure that needs rebuilding.
      - ultramundane8 6y ago
        Just from experience, I'm not sure I'd trust a military-style assessment to accurately identify skills. For example, I scored off the charts on linguistic comprehension (the Defense Language Aptitude Battery DLAB) and had a job as far from that as you can imagine. It might be worth considering who "they" are (from your insanely outraging "why can't they lay bricks?" akin to "let them eat cake"). And why wouldn't "they" sweat for a good wage? Seriously, do some soul searching. Your world is to make people starve or lay bricks?
pessimizer 6y ago
For the same reason we weren't creating infrastructure jobs before coronavirus. I'm not specifying what that reason is, and not for rhetorical reasons. I'm not specifying it because the need for infrastructure investment was just as acute before covid as after, and it wasn't being done then, and won't be done now. Universal handouts weren't to handle unemployment. They were to pay people to stay home.
temporalparts 6y ago
The problem is that bankruptcies, starvation, inability to maintain your car/house/children/job, and businesses collapsing due to the sudden demand shock are all extremely expensive for the economy in the long run. Those types of losses which these universal handouts are intended for are quick to inflict and long to recover from. As an example, if your normally profitable restaurant goes under and forced to permanently close due to insolvency, it'll take years to build back up a similar restaurant with a similar rapport, client base, efficiency and success. The long term economic impact of these handouts would easily outweigh the infrastructure investments you are proposing. When times are good though, we should be increasing taxation and investing in infrastructure. Instead, the US Republican party sought to create a massive tax cut during economic boom, which means that we are in a worse financial situation when times have become rough.
- conductr 6y ago
  I can get behind most of what you said except the idea that tax policy should match the economic situation of the day. We need stable tax policies that normalize for the booms/busts.
bsanr2 6y ago
We could do both. The GND and Freedom Dividend were both aimed at ameliorating major structural impediments to 1) infrastructure investment and renewal, and 2) grassroots-level innovation, respectively. Of course, since they're apparently anathema to all but the leftiest lefties, we're back at square one trying to figure out what to do.
trimbo 6y ago
How are we going to ramp up infrastructure projects with zero notice, while people are supposed to be social distancing?
- conductr 6y ago
  This is something an effective government would have in queue at all times. We have a track record of poor disaster planning. We generally ignore the fact that disasters will even happen.

by Taek 6y ago

untog 6y ago

It isn’t really all that valid in terms of the $1.2k payout. That was at the height of the pandemic, you absolutely didn’t want to have people out working in infrastructure jobs at that point, you wanted them to isolate at home. But the broader question, could/should the US use this moment of mass unemployment to create infrastructure jobs: IMO, yes. But it’ll never happen because someone will say the word “socialism” and it’ll immediately become politically unimaginable.

ultramundane8 6y ago

Could you elaborate on a plan (of course a really rough sketch) for "creating infrastructure jobs" during a global pandemic? I agree with the premise, but I would like to know how to accomplish something like this. Especially if you have domain knowledge, it could be enlightening to the HN readership. There are a lot of accomplished people who read these forums, and it would be cool to see a seed get planted.

conductr 6y ago
Need an unemployment check? Help build a bridge, road, dam, etc. In my mind it’s super simple. Money for labor. Problem is, most Americans would revolt if you asked them to break a sweat.
- petre 6y ago
  Not every unemployed person could operate a buldozer. What would you have them do, lay bricks? Train them to use heavy machinery after working in hospitality services? Germany does this with some amount of succes but I don't know how they do it. German socialism seems to work at the expense of a zero point growth figure. They still pay the solidarity tax for East Germany.
  - conductr 6y ago
    Yes I actually would do this. Why can’t they lay bricks? Would they rather starve? There would need to be some training component for several jobs (bulldozer driver) but I think there could be a job that’s right for most. This is pretty similar to what the military does I believe, you get a job based on aptitude and such. I don’t know if it’s the perfect solution but it feels more appropriate than our current approach. I don’t know much about the German way, I just know we pay for idle bodies while we have a lot of infrastructure that needs rebuilding.
    - ultramundane8 6y ago
      Just from experience, I'm not sure I'd trust a military-style assessment to accurately identify skills. For example, I scored off the charts on linguistic comprehension (the Defense Language Aptitude Battery DLAB) and had a job as far from that as you can imagine. It might be worth considering who "they" are (from your insanely outraging "why can't they lay bricks?" akin to "let them eat cake"). And why wouldn't "they" sweat for a good wage? Seriously, do some soul searching. Your world is to make people starve or lay bricks?

pessimizer 6y ago

For the same reason we weren't creating infrastructure jobs before coronavirus. I'm not specifying what that reason is, and not for rhetorical reasons. I'm not specifying it because the need for infrastructure investment was just as acute before covid as after, and it wasn't being done then, and won't be done now. Universal handouts weren't to handle unemployment. They were to pay people to stay home.

temporalparts 6y ago

The problem is that bankruptcies, starvation, inability to maintain your car/house/children/job, and businesses collapsing due to the sudden demand shock are all extremely expensive for the economy in the long run. Those types of losses which these universal handouts are intended for are quick to inflict and long to recover from. As an example, if your normally profitable restaurant goes under and forced to permanently close due to insolvency, it'll take years to build back up a similar restaurant with a similar rapport, client base, efficiency and success. The long term economic impact of these handouts would easily outweigh the infrastructure investments you are proposing. When times are good though, we should be increasing taxation and investing in infrastructure. Instead, the US Republican party sought to create a massive tax cut during economic boom, which means that we are in a worse financial situation when times have become rough.

conductr 6y ago
I can get behind most of what you said except the idea that tax policy should match the economic situation of the day. We need stable tax policies that normalize for the booms/busts.

bsanr2 6y ago

We could do both. The GND and Freedom Dividend were both aimed at ameliorating major structural impediments to 1) infrastructure investment and renewal, and 2) grassroots-level innovation, respectively. Of course, since they're apparently anathema to all but the leftiest lefties, we're back at square one trying to figure out what to do.

trimbo 6y ago

How are we going to ramp up infrastructure projects with zero notice, while people are supposed to be social distancing?

conductr 6y ago
This is something an effective government would have in queue at all times. We have a track record of poor disaster planning. We generally ignore the fact that disasters will even happen.