4 ms·

Do Apple actually work with Arm currently or is all their Apple Silicon stuff completely on their own? I don’t actually understand the issue they have with Nvid

by mcintyre1994 6y ago

Do Apple actually work with Arm currently or is all their Apple Silicon stuff completely on their own? I don’t actually understand the issue they have with Nvidia but they seem to have one.

kitsunesoba 6y ago
As I understand it, Apple has a special perpetual license for the architecture thanks to it being one of the companies that founded ARM. This deal shouldn't have too much impact on Apple.
- jrmg 6y ago
  I think you’re thinking of PowerPC? To my knowledge, Apple was not involved in any founding of ARM (the company or the ISA). ARM history, according to Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM_architecture#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM_architecture#History Edit: I guess you could quibble about ‘founding’, but really I’m wrong, and my own link proves it! ———— Advanced RISC Machines Ltd. – Arm6 In the late 1980s, Apple Computer and VLSI Technology started working with Acorn on newer versions of the Arm core. In 1990, Acorn spun off the design team into a new company named Advanced RISC Machines Ltd.,[30][31][32] which became Arm Ltd when its parent company, Arm Holdings plc, floated on the London Stock Exchange and NASDAQ in 1998.[33] The new Apple-Arm work would eventually evolve into the Arm6, first released in early 1992. Apple used the Arm6-based Arm610 as the basis for their Apple Newton PDA
  - klelatti 6y ago
    Plus Apple was a large shareholder (about 45% I think) in Advanced RISC Machines Ltd. The sale of that stake in the late 1990s raised a lot of cash (over $1bn) for Apple when it really needed it.
  - toyg 6y ago
    > Apple used the Arm6-based Arm610 as the basis for their Apple Newton PDA The ironies of history: one of Apple's most infamous failures ended up being the foundation of their later success.
    - pjmlp 6y ago
      Including how much JavaScript kind of resembles NewtonScript.
  - qweq1231234 6y ago
    From that page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM_architecture#Advanced_RISC_Machines_Ltd._.E2.80.93_Arm6 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM_architecture#Advanced_RISC... Advanced RISC Machines Ltd. – Arm6 Die of an Arm610 microprocessor In the late 1980s, Apple Computer and VLSI Technology started working with Acorn on newer versions of the Arm core. In 1990, Acorn spun off the design team into a new company named Advanced RISC Machines Ltd.,[30][31][32] which became Arm Ltd when its parent company, Arm Holdings plc, floated on the London Stock Exchange and NASDAQ in 1998.[33] The new Apple-Arm work would eventually evolve into the Arm6, first released in early 1992. Apple used the Arm6-based Arm610 as the basis for their Apple Newton PDA.
- wwice 6y ago
  From this article https://www.imore.com/mac-moving-apple-silicon-not-arm https://www.imore.com/mac-moving-apple-silicon-not-arm "First, ARM has two different kinds of licenses. One is for chipset designs. You pay your fee, you take your Cortex cores or whatever, you get them fabbed, and you've got your CPUs. The other is an ISA license. With that, you get no chip design. None. All you get is the instruction set architecture. You have to roll the actual design yourself. And that's what Apple's been doing. Making their own custom designs that use the ARM instruction set. For years."
  - afroboy 6y ago
    Isn't that what everybody doing Qualcomm, Samsung, huawei ..?
    - kasabali 6y ago
      No. They have architectural licenses but they use ARM designs.
- ksec 6y ago
  Just to point out the perpetual license for the architecture is not special to Apple, and has nothing to do with ARM being founded by Apple. It is standard business offering from ARM.
klelatti 6y ago
Saw a presentation a little while ago with Simon Segars of Arm and Jeff Williams of Apple (don't have the link but it was in honour of Morris Chang of TSMC and I think Jensen Huang hosted!) which seemed to imply that there was quite a close relationship. If nothing else I'd expect feedback from Apple to Arm about the evolution of the architecture. If Apple was really unhappy about this and didn't want full ownership they could probably pull together a consortium to put together a rival bid. Doesn't look like it's happening though.
- severine 6y ago
  > Saw a presentation a little while ago with Simon Segars of Arm and Jeff Williams of Apple (don't have the link but it was in honour of Morris Chang of TSMC and I think Jensen Huang hosted!) Perhaps this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGT3zSGDN3k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGT3zSGDN3k
  - klelatti 6y ago
    It was - thank you. Not sure which part led me to think that Apple and Arm worked together though and it's a long presentation!
    - wdb 6y ago
      Maybe because it's a co-founder of ARM?
      - klelatti 6y ago
        There was a specific exchange between Segars and Williams in this presentation which seemed to imply a close relationship.
stjohnswarts 6y ago
Apple has a perpetual license to ARM tech. There's nothing Nvidia can do to them.
- marticode 6y ago
  Apple is clearly tied historically to ARM, and might have gotten something like that, but I've yet to see a definite source about this so called perpetual license. For all we know they just pay for that license like everybody else.

Do Apple actually work with Arm currently or is all their Apple Silicon stuff completely on their own? I don’t actually understand the issue they have with Nvidia but they seem to have one.

kitsunesoba 6y ago

As I understand it, Apple has a special perpetual license for the architecture thanks to it being one of the companies that founded ARM. This deal shouldn't have too much impact on Apple.

jrmg 6y ago
I think you’re thinking of PowerPC? To my knowledge, Apple was not involved in any founding of ARM (the company or the ISA). ARM history, according to Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM_architecture#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM_architecture#History Edit: I guess you could quibble about ‘founding’, but really I’m wrong, and my own link proves it! ———— Advanced RISC Machines Ltd. – Arm6 In the late 1980s, Apple Computer and VLSI Technology started working with Acorn on newer versions of the Arm core. In 1990, Acorn spun off the design team into a new company named Advanced RISC Machines Ltd.,[30][31][32] which became Arm Ltd when its parent company, Arm Holdings plc, floated on the London Stock Exchange and NASDAQ in 1998.[33] The new Apple-Arm work would eventually evolve into the Arm6, first released in early 1992. Apple used the Arm6-based Arm610 as the basis for their Apple Newton PDA
- klelatti 6y ago
  Plus Apple was a large shareholder (about 45% I think) in Advanced RISC Machines Ltd. The sale of that stake in the late 1990s raised a lot of cash (over $1bn) for Apple when it really needed it.
- toyg 6y ago
  > Apple used the Arm6-based Arm610 as the basis for their Apple Newton PDA The ironies of history: one of Apple's most infamous failures ended up being the foundation of their later success.
  - pjmlp 6y ago
    Including how much JavaScript kind of resembles NewtonScript.
- qweq1231234 6y ago
  From that page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM_architecture#Advanced_RISC_Machines_Ltd._.E2.80.93_Arm6 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM_architecture#Advanced_RISC... Advanced RISC Machines Ltd. – Arm6 Die of an Arm610 microprocessor In the late 1980s, Apple Computer and VLSI Technology started working with Acorn on newer versions of the Arm core. In 1990, Acorn spun off the design team into a new company named Advanced RISC Machines Ltd.,[30][31][32] which became Arm Ltd when its parent company, Arm Holdings plc, floated on the London Stock Exchange and NASDAQ in 1998.[33] The new Apple-Arm work would eventually evolve into the Arm6, first released in early 1992. Apple used the Arm6-based Arm610 as the basis for their Apple Newton PDA.
wwice 6y ago
From this article https://www.imore.com/mac-moving-apple-silicon-not-arm https://www.imore.com/mac-moving-apple-silicon-not-arm "First, ARM has two different kinds of licenses. One is for chipset designs. You pay your fee, you take your Cortex cores or whatever, you get them fabbed, and you've got your CPUs. The other is an ISA license. With that, you get no chip design. None. All you get is the instruction set architecture. You have to roll the actual design yourself. And that's what Apple's been doing. Making their own custom designs that use the ARM instruction set. For years."
- afroboy 6y ago
  Isn't that what everybody doing Qualcomm, Samsung, huawei ..?
  - kasabali 6y ago
    No. They have architectural licenses but they use ARM designs.
ksec 6y ago
Just to point out the perpetual license for the architecture is not special to Apple, and has nothing to do with ARM being founded by Apple. It is standard business offering from ARM.

klelatti 6y ago

Saw a presentation a little while ago with Simon Segars of Arm and Jeff Williams of Apple (don't have the link but it was in honour of Morris Chang of TSMC and I think Jensen Huang hosted!) which seemed to imply that there was quite a close relationship. If nothing else I'd expect feedback from Apple to Arm about the evolution of the architecture. If Apple was really unhappy about this and didn't want full ownership they could probably pull together a consortium to put together a rival bid. Doesn't look like it's happening though.

severine 6y ago
> Saw a presentation a little while ago with Simon Segars of Arm and Jeff Williams of Apple (don't have the link but it was in honour of Morris Chang of TSMC and I think Jensen Huang hosted!) Perhaps this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGT3zSGDN3k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGT3zSGDN3k
- klelatti 6y ago
  It was - thank you. Not sure which part led me to think that Apple and Arm worked together though and it's a long presentation!
  - wdb 6y ago
    Maybe because it's a co-founder of ARM?
    - klelatti 6y ago
      There was a specific exchange between Segars and Williams in this presentation which seemed to imply a close relationship.

stjohnswarts 6y ago

Apple has a perpetual license to ARM tech. There's nothing Nvidia can do to them.

marticode 6y ago
Apple is clearly tied historically to ARM, and might have gotten something like that, but I've yet to see a definite source about this so called perpetual license. For all we know they just pay for that license like everybody else.