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>The rest of you will have opinions whether they are allowed in English. Those opinions will tend to agree. These agreeing opinions could easily be due to a co

>The rest of you will have opinions whether they are allowed in English. Those opinions will tend to agree. These agreeing opinions could easily be due to a common cultural heritage and a history of reinforcement. People get reinforced for speaking in a way that is understood (and seen as correct) by others and so they speak that way. It benefits them to conform. Since everyone who speaks English shares a cultural language heritage, there is obviously a shared history of reinforcement. The shared history of reinforcement leads to widespread agreement about rules, and yet there are still plenty of examples of English dialects that violate rules of other dialects. For instance, Ebonics vs. American English. Both are valid dialects with different rules. Both are English. Are you claiming that Ebonics speakers have a different generative mechanism than American English speakers? Obviously Ebonics has evolved __from__ American English, into something new. Creative, meaningful responding exists outside of language and the evidence is overwhelming that this creativity is due to reinforcement history rather than some innate quality of the brain. Anyway I don't think your facts lead to your conclusion at all.

thisrod 16y ago
Obviously, feedback is part of learning language. B. F. Skinner argued that it was the whole explanation, as you're claiming. That was the idea Chomsky challenged. You're not addressing the crucial point. The suprise isn't that people can invent new sentences. It's how well they can tell if other speakers will regard those sentences as valid English (or valid Ebonics). People can evaluate sentences, and forms of sentences, that have never been spoken. They could not have learned that by feedback, and linguists stuggle to state the precise rules by which they do it.
- forensic 16y ago
  >They could not have learned that by feedback Why not? I'm not saying that grammar doesn't exist, I'm asking why it needs to be innate? The existence of grammar rules is what allows us to determine if a sentence is grammatically correct. These rules could be learned through experience. Why do they need to be innate? I believe you don't understand Chomsky's argument. I'm not a die hard behaviourist I just know the behaviourist position well enough to know that your particular formulation of the "language is special" theory is easily refuted.
stan_rogers 16y ago
Obviously Ebonics has evolved __from__ American English, into something new. That's not obvious at all. "Ebonics" (or AAVE -- the grammar, as opposed to transient slang) has much in common with Hiberno-Englishes found elsewhere. As a sometime speaker of Newfanese, I find the tense constructions of AAVE very familiar and predictable.
- forensic 16y ago
  Are you suggesting that Ebonics evolved from Newfies?

thisrod 16y ago

Obviously, feedback is part of learning language. B. F. Skinner argued that it was the whole explanation, as you're claiming. That was the idea Chomsky challenged. You're not addressing the crucial point. The suprise isn't that people can invent new sentences. It's how well they can tell if other speakers will regard those sentences as valid English (or valid Ebonics). People can evaluate sentences, and forms of sentences, that have never been spoken. They could not have learned that by feedback, and linguists stuggle to state the precise rules by which they do it.

forensic 16y ago
>They could not have learned that by feedback Why not? I'm not saying that grammar doesn't exist, I'm asking why it needs to be innate? The existence of grammar rules is what allows us to determine if a sentence is grammatically correct. These rules could be learned through experience. Why do they need to be innate? I believe you don't understand Chomsky's argument. I'm not a die hard behaviourist I just know the behaviourist position well enough to know that your particular formulation of the "language is special" theory is easily refuted.

stan_rogers 16y ago

Obviously Ebonics has evolved __from__ American English, into something new. That's not obvious at all. "Ebonics" (or AAVE -- the grammar, as opposed to transient slang) has much in common with Hiberno-Englishes found elsewhere. As a sometime speaker of Newfanese, I find the tense constructions of AAVE very familiar and predictable.

forensic 16y ago
Are you suggesting that Ebonics evolved from Newfies?