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> "If there is one lesson from the last millennium, it's that innovation has poor economies of scale and is stifled by centralisation." When did we learn that?

> "If there is one lesson from the last millennium, it's that innovation has poor economies of scale and is stifled by centralisation." When did we learn that? Bell Labs, Xerox PARC, and Intel's decades of dominance in semiconductor process research are prime counterexamples but I'm sure there are plenty of others.

JumpCrisscross 6y ago
> Bell Labs, Xerox PARC, and Intel's decades of dominance Compare the size of these companies, in their time, to the Soviet-scale bureaucracies of Facebook, Apple, Amazon or Google. Innovation doesn't have no economies of scale. But they peter out around the levels of CERN or NASA. (At private enterprises, that threshold appears smaller.) Also note the difference between invention and innovation, the latter implying successful distribution. Xero PARC developing great things and then abandoning them isn't productive apart from fluke exfiltrations like by way of a tour.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- MiroF 6y ago
  > Facebook, Apple, Amazon or Google. You're just making things up at this point. Bell was easily larger than all of those with the possible exception of Amazon.
- ThrowawayR2 6y ago
  > "Compare the size of these companies, in their time, to the Soviet-scale bureaucracies of Facebook, Apple, Amazon or Google." Not sure what you're trying to say here. I'll wager that Bell Systems at its peak was probably was larger than even Amazon in terms of total employees, given that they ran the nationwide telephone network. Xerox was no slouch in size in its heyday either, given the ubiquity of photocopiers at every single office everywhere. [EDIT] From Wikipedia: "At the time of its breakup in the early 1980s, the Bell System had assets of $150 billion (equivalent to $370 billion in 2019) and employed over one million people." So at least as many employees as Amazon currently has and enough market cap for consideration as a FAANG.
- perardi 6y ago
  > Compare the size of these companies, in their time, to the Soviet-scale bureaucracies of Facebook, Apple, Amazon or Google. At the risk of being flippant: lol. “Soviet-scale bureaucracies” and “size of these companies”. The Bell System employed over 1 million people in the early 1980s. Apple is around 140,000 now. Amazon is close to a million, but compared to population growth, c’mon. And I dare you to read about the history of the Bell System and somehow come to the conclusion it was a lean, mean streamlined machine. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_System
  - MiroF 6y ago
    It somewhat astonishes me how many people will make really strong policy claims without having the historical chops to back it up. The idea of a lean, mean, non-bureaucratic Bell system against the Soviet-scale bureaucracy of Google and Facebook is just laughable.
    - nitrogen 6y ago
      The breakup of the bell system is what allowed dial-up services and the ISPs that followed them to flourish.
  - andrewjl 6y ago
    You can't compare headcount across time periods without taking into account productivity growth. This is an apples-and-oranges comparison.
  - scarface74 6y ago
    Apple “employs” 140K people only if you don’t count the thousands of people that basically “work for” Apple making hardware in China. Historically, manufacturers didn’t outsource their entire manufacturing facilities.
- andrewjl 6y ago
  I agree with all this, just want to add that there have been cultural and structural changes in US society as well that make comparisons to 1960s NASA or Bell Labs ahistorical.

JumpCrisscross 6y ago

> Bell Labs, Xerox PARC, and Intel's decades of dominance Compare the size of these companies, in their time, to the Soviet-scale bureaucracies of Facebook, Apple, Amazon or Google. Innovation doesn't have no economies of scale. But they peter out around the levels of CERN or NASA. (At private enterprises, that threshold appears smaller.) Also note the difference between invention and innovation, the latter implying successful distribution. Xero PARC developing great things and then abandoning them isn't productive apart from fluke exfiltrations like by way of a tour.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
MiroF 6y ago
> Facebook, Apple, Amazon or Google. You're just making things up at this point. Bell was easily larger than all of those with the possible exception of Amazon.
ThrowawayR2 6y ago
> "Compare the size of these companies, in their time, to the Soviet-scale bureaucracies of Facebook, Apple, Amazon or Google." Not sure what you're trying to say here. I'll wager that Bell Systems at its peak was probably was larger than even Amazon in terms of total employees, given that they ran the nationwide telephone network. Xerox was no slouch in size in its heyday either, given the ubiquity of photocopiers at every single office everywhere. [EDIT] From Wikipedia: "At the time of its breakup in the early 1980s, the Bell System had assets of $150 billion (equivalent to $370 billion in 2019) and employed over one million people." So at least as many employees as Amazon currently has and enough market cap for consideration as a FAANG.
perardi 6y ago
> Compare the size of these companies, in their time, to the Soviet-scale bureaucracies of Facebook, Apple, Amazon or Google. At the risk of being flippant: lol. “Soviet-scale bureaucracies” and “size of these companies”. The Bell System employed over 1 million people in the early 1980s. Apple is around 140,000 now. Amazon is close to a million, but compared to population growth, c’mon. And I dare you to read about the history of the Bell System and somehow come to the conclusion it was a lean, mean streamlined machine. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_System
- MiroF 6y ago
  It somewhat astonishes me how many people will make really strong policy claims without having the historical chops to back it up. The idea of a lean, mean, non-bureaucratic Bell system against the Soviet-scale bureaucracy of Google and Facebook is just laughable.
  - nitrogen 6y ago
    The breakup of the bell system is what allowed dial-up services and the ISPs that followed them to flourish.
- andrewjl 6y ago
  You can't compare headcount across time periods without taking into account productivity growth. This is an apples-and-oranges comparison.
- scarface74 6y ago
  Apple “employs” 140K people only if you don’t count the thousands of people that basically “work for” Apple making hardware in China. Historically, manufacturers didn’t outsource their entire manufacturing facilities.
andrewjl 6y ago
I agree with all this, just want to add that there have been cultural and structural changes in US society as well that make comparisons to 1960s NASA or Bell Labs ahistorical.