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> Epic wants to sell digital gambling (loot) boxes to children Fortnite hasn't had loot boxes like this for about 18 months. The contents of the box are visibl

> Epic wants to sell digital gambling (loot) boxes to children Fortnite hasn't had loot boxes like this for about 18 months. The contents of the box are visible and change each day. https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2019/01/fortnite-puts-an-end-to-random-loot-boxes-purchases/ https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2019/01/fortnite-puts-an-end-...

falcolas 6y ago
Which is still gambling, just on the contents of the next box. It’s obfuscating the gambling, and it’s unfortunately working.
- sorenjan 6y ago
  Either way, Apple takes 30% of the revenue. Apple isn't standing up to Epic's gambling, they''re profiting a lot from it and their only issue with Epic seems to be that they want to keep profiting from it. The Epic and Apple case started when Epic circumvented Apple for in app purchases and lowered their prices accordingly.
  - falcolas 6y ago
    They don’t get a commission for the sale of the Fortnight software, or for marketing Fortnight on their own dime; do you believe that they don’t deserve to get any commissions for providing Fortnight a platform and publicity?
    - nogabebop23 6y ago
      I guess this is the crux: are they providing a platform and marketing, or are the gate-keeping rent seekers between the developer and their customers?
      - falcolas 6y ago
        Honestly, both positions are arguable. But, and it's a big but, the fact that it is their hardware and their OS points to the former (their platform, their marketing). Ultimately, it's their storefront, so who they do business with - and the terms of that business - is their choice (as is so often argued when free speech and platforms comes up here on HN). Competition exists, in the form of other hardware and other OSes (though, Epic's Fortnight was kicked off Google's store for the same reason as it was kicked off Apple's).
    - oarsinsync 6y ago
      As a developer, I have no desire for Apple to market my software for me. Fortunately for me, Apple has never chosen to highlight and market my software for me. Unfortunately for me, they’re still taking 30% of the revenue for distribution alone, and there’s absolutely no way that’s fair, given that I can self distribute on every other platform for about 4%. I already have a cloud footprint as my apps depend on it. The bulk of that 4% is in payment processing. The rest is just background noise on my hosting bills.
      - scarface74 6y ago
        Epic tried “self distributing” on Android with side loading. Guess how that worked out?
      - falcolas 6y ago
        > I have no desire for Apple to market my software for me Yet you do have a desire for it to run on Apple's hardware, under Apple's OS. And thus you have a desire to do business with them. That you disagree with their rules for doing business by itself doesn't make them the bad guy. They're offering many of the same terms offered by Microsoft, Google (Android Play store and Stadia), and Sony after all.
        mcfedr 6y ago
        This is the mistake, as a developer I want my app to run on your hardware, and the hardware of millions of others, it hardware that you happen to have bought from apple, but it's no longer theirs, and if you want to run my app, and I want you to, that should be our choice, not Apples.
        falcolas 6y ago
        > your hardware This is a problem that's bigger than Apple, and it's not a problem that will be solved by allowing more stores on the phone - it won't make it somehow "your" hardware. You can blame Apple for doing this with their phone all you want, but you're fighting against the tide with a shovel. It's an industry standard to lock hardware down to the point where they'd rather the hardware be bricked (the Nintendo Switch and its hardware fuses) than run "libre" software on it.
    - sorenjan 6y ago
      If they want to charge Epic and other developers of free apps and games, that's one thing. Apple have made a calculated business decision to charge developers $99/year for those expenses, and it's not like they don't profit anything from having a large game and app library. They're not charging for providing a platform and publicity though, they are forcing developers to use their payment processing for in app purchases, which IMO does not contribute 30% of the produced value for those purchases. But my main point was that trying to frame it as heroic Apple against evil Epic, where Apple tries to save their users from gambling by taking a large cut of the loot, isn't entirely truthful.
- stonith 6y ago
  That doesn't meet any definition of gambling I'm aware of. It's equivalent to having a daily sale on a set of products.
  - falcolas 6y ago
    If you purchase a lootcrate, a new lootcrate is revealed for you. Sorry if that wasn’t clear.
    - znpy 6y ago
      That makes sense as point... Yes I can see that giving the same feeling as old lootboxes.
  - mlyle 6y ago
    If you want to get all the cool items, you can wait till tomorrow for one of them to maybe show up as an offer, or you can buy boxes until they are offered to you. It might be the very next box!!
- Anon1096 6y ago
  Does buying a product at full price constitute gambling because tomorrow it might go 50% off?
scarface74 6y ago
And Epic has been found guilty since then of illegally convincing minors to spend money in Fortnite. https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20191008/08591443147/epic-games-settles-with-cheating-minor-to-end-lawsuit.shtml https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20191008/08591443147/epic-...
- tpush 6y ago
  The linked article neither found Epic guilty (they settled) nor was it even about Epic convincing minors to spend money, but about Epic suing Fortnite cheaters, one of whom apparently was a minor. Please don't willingly spread misinformation like this.
  - scarface74 6y ago
    Wrong link. https://www.sportskeeda.com/esports/news-fortnite-sued-tricking-minors-spending-money-judge-rules-epic https://www.sportskeeda.com/esports/news-fortnite-sued-trick... > U.S. District Judge Yvonne Gonzalez Rogers announced a ruling yesterday which stated that Fortnite had convinced minors to spend money in game without parental consent. This ruling keeps Epic on the hook for its misleading business practices.
- TheSpiceIsLife 6y ago
  The article you linked says no such thing, it talks only of an out of court settlement.
  - scarface74 6y ago
    https://www.sportskeeda.com/esports/news-fortnite-sued-tricking-minors-spending-money-judge-rules-epic https://www.sportskeeda.com/esports/news-fortnite-sued-trick... Was this also an ”out of court settlement”
    - TheSpiceIsLife 6y ago
      No. What's your point? The other one was, that's all I was directing my reply to.

falcolas 6y ago

Which is still gambling, just on the contents of the next box. It’s obfuscating the gambling, and it’s unfortunately working.

sorenjan 6y ago
Either way, Apple takes 30% of the revenue. Apple isn't standing up to Epic's gambling, they''re profiting a lot from it and their only issue with Epic seems to be that they want to keep profiting from it. The Epic and Apple case started when Epic circumvented Apple for in app purchases and lowered their prices accordingly.
- falcolas 6y ago
  They don’t get a commission for the sale of the Fortnight software, or for marketing Fortnight on their own dime; do you believe that they don’t deserve to get any commissions for providing Fortnight a platform and publicity?
  - nogabebop23 6y ago
    I guess this is the crux: are they providing a platform and marketing, or are the gate-keeping rent seekers between the developer and their customers?
    - falcolas 6y ago
      Honestly, both positions are arguable. But, and it's a big but, the fact that it is their hardware and their OS points to the former (their platform, their marketing). Ultimately, it's their storefront, so who they do business with - and the terms of that business - is their choice (as is so often argued when free speech and platforms comes up here on HN). Competition exists, in the form of other hardware and other OSes (though, Epic's Fortnight was kicked off Google's store for the same reason as it was kicked off Apple's).
  - oarsinsync 6y ago
    As a developer, I have no desire for Apple to market my software for me. Fortunately for me, Apple has never chosen to highlight and market my software for me. Unfortunately for me, they’re still taking 30% of the revenue for distribution alone, and there’s absolutely no way that’s fair, given that I can self distribute on every other platform for about 4%. I already have a cloud footprint as my apps depend on it. The bulk of that 4% is in payment processing. The rest is just background noise on my hosting bills.
    - scarface74 6y ago
      Epic tried “self distributing” on Android with side loading. Guess how that worked out?
    - falcolas 6y ago
      > I have no desire for Apple to market my software for me Yet you do have a desire for it to run on Apple's hardware, under Apple's OS. And thus you have a desire to do business with them. That you disagree with their rules for doing business by itself doesn't make them the bad guy. They're offering many of the same terms offered by Microsoft, Google (Android Play store and Stadia), and Sony after all.
      - mcfedr 6y ago
        This is the mistake, as a developer I want my app to run on your hardware, and the hardware of millions of others, it hardware that you happen to have bought from apple, but it's no longer theirs, and if you want to run my app, and I want you to, that should be our choice, not Apples.
        falcolas 6y ago
        > your hardware This is a problem that's bigger than Apple, and it's not a problem that will be solved by allowing more stores on the phone - it won't make it somehow "your" hardware. You can blame Apple for doing this with their phone all you want, but you're fighting against the tide with a shovel. It's an industry standard to lock hardware down to the point where they'd rather the hardware be bricked (the Nintendo Switch and its hardware fuses) than run "libre" software on it.
  - sorenjan 6y ago
    If they want to charge Epic and other developers of free apps and games, that's one thing. Apple have made a calculated business decision to charge developers $99/year for those expenses, and it's not like they don't profit anything from having a large game and app library. They're not charging for providing a platform and publicity though, they are forcing developers to use their payment processing for in app purchases, which IMO does not contribute 30% of the produced value for those purchases. But my main point was that trying to frame it as heroic Apple against evil Epic, where Apple tries to save their users from gambling by taking a large cut of the loot, isn't entirely truthful.
stonith 6y ago
That doesn't meet any definition of gambling I'm aware of. It's equivalent to having a daily sale on a set of products.
- falcolas 6y ago
  If you purchase a lootcrate, a new lootcrate is revealed for you. Sorry if that wasn’t clear.
  - znpy 6y ago
    That makes sense as point... Yes I can see that giving the same feeling as old lootboxes.
- mlyle 6y ago
  If you want to get all the cool items, you can wait till tomorrow for one of them to maybe show up as an offer, or you can buy boxes until they are offered to you. It might be the very next box!!
Anon1096 6y ago
Does buying a product at full price constitute gambling because tomorrow it might go 50% off?

scarface74 6y ago

And Epic has been found guilty since then of illegally convincing minors to spend money in Fortnite. https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20191008/08591443147/epic-games-settles-with-cheating-minor-to-end-lawsuit.shtml https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20191008/08591443147/epic-...

tpush 6y ago
The linked article neither found Epic guilty (they settled) nor was it even about Epic convincing minors to spend money, but about Epic suing Fortnite cheaters, one of whom apparently was a minor. Please don't willingly spread misinformation like this.
- scarface74 6y ago
  Wrong link. https://www.sportskeeda.com/esports/news-fortnite-sued-tricking-minors-spending-money-judge-rules-epic https://www.sportskeeda.com/esports/news-fortnite-sued-trick... > U.S. District Judge Yvonne Gonzalez Rogers announced a ruling yesterday which stated that Fortnite had convinced minors to spend money in game without parental consent. This ruling keeps Epic on the hook for its misleading business practices.
TheSpiceIsLife 6y ago
The article you linked says no such thing, it talks only of an out of court settlement.
- scarface74 6y ago
  https://www.sportskeeda.com/esports/news-fortnite-sued-tricking-minors-spending-money-judge-rules-epic https://www.sportskeeda.com/esports/news-fortnite-sued-trick... Was this also an ”out of court settlement”
  - TheSpiceIsLife 6y ago
    No. What's your point? The other one was, that's all I was directing my reply to.