3 ms·

Can you give examples of what you consider cancellation and not? For examples is Scott Alexander, a well known blogger, having is full name (which is only sort

Can you give examples of what you consider cancellation and not? For examples is Scott Alexander, a well known blogger, having is full name (which is only sort of a secret) posted "cancellation" in your eyes? I think the issue may be that you're defining cancel culture in a way that's very different than what most people in general, and in this thread, do. That's not wholly your fault, but it does mean that the conversation probably won't be fruitful. I ask this mostly because I'm having a hard time coming up with a lot of examples of what you mean by "cancel culture" outside of the 3-4 well trodden examples of "cancellation gone wrong" (Justice Sacco, and the recent examples from the Atlantic Article "Stop Firing the Innocent").

mgamache 6y ago
Of course we only hear about famous (or semi-famous) people Off the top of my head... Stephen Hsu of MSU Greg Patton of USC Bret Weinstein (a few years ago.. this backfired). Jonathan Friedland (fired for using the N-Word in a meeting discussing sensitive words in PR), Peter Boghossian (still is employed, but was harassed IRL and investigated under ethics charges after the grievance studies papers). But, it's the famous people that are the most important for signalling that if you publicly voice an unpopular opinion you will have to endure retribution. It's the chilling effect that important as that will silence multiples for each public witch burning. For most of human history being ostracized from your social group was a death sentence. We are wired to respond to negative group pressure. We learn the rules pretty quickly. Avoid certain topics, post anodyne content, virtue signal to my in group.
- joshuamorton 6y ago
  This is exactly the problem, of the people you listed, only perhaps freidland and patton meet GPs definition of cancel culture. The others got backlash for doing incendiary, public things, which doesn't meet the definition given by GP. Hsu, Weinstein, and Boghossian definitely do not meet GPs definition. After a second look, Freidland also does not. He was fired by netflix solely due to their preferences and without any sort of external hubbub at all. (I'm also not clear how Friedland's firing meets any definition of cancel culture, so I'd like to hear your definition as well).
  - mgamache 6y ago
    GP was looking for people 'who was not previously famous'. Any college professor has a somewhat public job, but it's not the defining feature of the job (for most professors).
    - joshuamorton 6y ago
      You picked out one aspect of four. A college professor who gets recognition for controversial research they do does have the opportunity to contextualize that research. Someone who spends weeks or months devoted to doing something wasn't "caught on a bad day". An executive fired by their own company isn't "thrust into the spotlight". If your personal definition of cancel culture is "a non famous person faces consequences for an act", that's fine, but it's also a uselessly loose definition.
      - fscsq 6y ago
        "Faced consequences" is such a horrid phrase. Strongly implying that a heinous act had been committed, one that required punishment but would have gone unpunished, and that the "consequences" wrought instead were fair and justified and proportionate and meaningful...but without having to actually make such statements. That they don't normally face consequences, that they are the fabled Men of Power that run roughshod over laws and morals and spend their days kicking dogs and grabbing pussies, and it is up to us to make them face Consequences once and for all. But fortunately, you only said "they did something, so we felt justified to Do Something", a statement of fact, impervious to attack.
bargl 6y ago
>I think the issue may be that you're defining cancel culture in a way that's very different than what most people in general, and in this thread, do. That's not wholly your fault, but it does mean that the conversation probably won't be fruitful. Just to be clear, I'm using a definition that I did not come up with on my own. Cancel culture doesn't have one definition. I linked a video where T1J kinda covers this. He's not a definitive source, but at least two people are confused by this definition. Examples => I've got to google it. The best example I can think of was the lady who got on the flight and when she landed she didn't have a job. Her tweet was taken out of context, and while made in poor taste still.... kinda lame. Other examples would be the google memo guy (kind of a reverse order firing iirc), the maga hat kid, the lady from brookfield zoo, and the manager at Chipotle off the top of my head. Google some examples of this. Should you post stupid things to Facebook/Twitter? No you shouldn't. Should you get fired for it? I'd lean to the no side more than most people I'd guess. I think free speech is important, but companies have the right to fire people. Is it the end of the world? In most mild cases, not so much. But there are some more extreme cases where there are much more long lasting effects to people. We don't typically hear about it unless the cancellation is something that was taken out of context and some people feel bad for the person being canceled. A lot of times it's just someone getting fired.
- joshuamorton 6y ago
  > The best example I can think of was the lady who got on the flight and when she landed she didn't have a job. That's Justine Sacco. > Other examples would be the google memo guy (kind of a reverse order firing iirc) I (as a firsthand account) argue that Damore had ample opportunity to contextualize his comments, so I'd disagree that this meets your definition, although there's been so much misleading information since that it's an easy mistake to make. > the maga hat kid Sure. Although there's an argument that he was able to control the narrative eventually. At this point in time the prevailing narrative is that he was libeled by the media, even though legally speaking, that's probably false. > lady from brookfield zoo I honestly can't figure out what you mean. There's a 2019 story about an old lady who crashed her car and may have lost her license? I can't find enough information on this to see why it would be an instance of cancellation. > manager at Chipotle Ok, sort of. I mean she was able to recontextualize the situation and was offered her job back the same week. This is sort of why the sky is falling concerns about cancellation don't resonate with me. The definition you picked is, I'd argue one that frames cancellation as an objectively unfair thing. And one that is concerning even when it ultimately makes the right choice. But the examples you gave don't really meet that objectively bad definition.

mgamache 6y ago

Of course we only hear about famous (or semi-famous) people Off the top of my head... Stephen Hsu of MSU Greg Patton of USC Bret Weinstein (a few years ago.. this backfired). Jonathan Friedland (fired for using the N-Word in a meeting discussing sensitive words in PR), Peter Boghossian (still is employed, but was harassed IRL and investigated under ethics charges after the grievance studies papers). But, it's the famous people that are the most important for signalling that if you publicly voice an unpopular opinion you will have to endure retribution. It's the chilling effect that important as that will silence multiples for each public witch burning. For most of human history being ostracized from your social group was a death sentence. We are wired to respond to negative group pressure. We learn the rules pretty quickly. Avoid certain topics, post anodyne content, virtue signal to my in group.

joshuamorton 6y ago
This is exactly the problem, of the people you listed, only perhaps freidland and patton meet GPs definition of cancel culture. The others got backlash for doing incendiary, public things, which doesn't meet the definition given by GP. Hsu, Weinstein, and Boghossian definitely do not meet GPs definition. After a second look, Freidland also does not. He was fired by netflix solely due to their preferences and without any sort of external hubbub at all. (I'm also not clear how Friedland's firing meets any definition of cancel culture, so I'd like to hear your definition as well).
- mgamache 6y ago
  GP was looking for people 'who was not previously famous'. Any college professor has a somewhat public job, but it's not the defining feature of the job (for most professors).
  - joshuamorton 6y ago
    You picked out one aspect of four. A college professor who gets recognition for controversial research they do does have the opportunity to contextualize that research. Someone who spends weeks or months devoted to doing something wasn't "caught on a bad day". An executive fired by their own company isn't "thrust into the spotlight". If your personal definition of cancel culture is "a non famous person faces consequences for an act", that's fine, but it's also a uselessly loose definition.
    - fscsq 6y ago
      "Faced consequences" is such a horrid phrase. Strongly implying that a heinous act had been committed, one that required punishment but would have gone unpunished, and that the "consequences" wrought instead were fair and justified and proportionate and meaningful...but without having to actually make such statements. That they don't normally face consequences, that they are the fabled Men of Power that run roughshod over laws and morals and spend their days kicking dogs and grabbing pussies, and it is up to us to make them face Consequences once and for all. But fortunately, you only said "they did something, so we felt justified to Do Something", a statement of fact, impervious to attack.

bargl 6y ago

>I think the issue may be that you're defining cancel culture in a way that's very different than what most people in general, and in this thread, do. That's not wholly your fault, but it does mean that the conversation probably won't be fruitful. Just to be clear, I'm using a definition that I did not come up with on my own. Cancel culture doesn't have one definition. I linked a video where T1J kinda covers this. He's not a definitive source, but at least two people are confused by this definition. Examples => I've got to google it. The best example I can think of was the lady who got on the flight and when she landed she didn't have a job. Her tweet was taken out of context, and while made in poor taste still.... kinda lame. Other examples would be the google memo guy (kind of a reverse order firing iirc), the maga hat kid, the lady from brookfield zoo, and the manager at Chipotle off the top of my head. Google some examples of this. Should you post stupid things to Facebook/Twitter? No you shouldn't. Should you get fired for it? I'd lean to the no side more than most people I'd guess. I think free speech is important, but companies have the right to fire people. Is it the end of the world? In most mild cases, not so much. But there are some more extreme cases where there are much more long lasting effects to people. We don't typically hear about it unless the cancellation is something that was taken out of context and some people feel bad for the person being canceled. A lot of times it's just someone getting fired.

joshuamorton 6y ago
> The best example I can think of was the lady who got on the flight and when she landed she didn't have a job. That's Justine Sacco. > Other examples would be the google memo guy (kind of a reverse order firing iirc) I (as a firsthand account) argue that Damore had ample opportunity to contextualize his comments, so I'd disagree that this meets your definition, although there's been so much misleading information since that it's an easy mistake to make. > the maga hat kid Sure. Although there's an argument that he was able to control the narrative eventually. At this point in time the prevailing narrative is that he was libeled by the media, even though legally speaking, that's probably false. > lady from brookfield zoo I honestly can't figure out what you mean. There's a 2019 story about an old lady who crashed her car and may have lost her license? I can't find enough information on this to see why it would be an instance of cancellation. > manager at Chipotle Ok, sort of. I mean she was able to recontextualize the situation and was offered her job back the same week. This is sort of why the sky is falling concerns about cancellation don't resonate with me. The definition you picked is, I'd argue one that frames cancellation as an objectively unfair thing. And one that is concerning even when it ultimately makes the right choice. But the examples you gave don't really meet that objectively bad definition.