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To build a financial system completely separate from the state. To avoid fiat currency, if you desire. To conduct commerce without government interference whats

To build a financial system completely separate from the state. To avoid fiat currency, if you desire. To conduct commerce without government interference whatsoever. This is not a pipe dream. This happens every day in increasing numbers. I’m sorry if you don’t like this.

CharlesW 6y ago
> This happens every day in increasing numbers. Nope. Bitcoin trading volume (for example) has plummeted to a miniscule fraction of its late-2016 hype height.
- seibelj 6y ago
  It doesn’t seem you are familiar with this space, given that Ethereum transaction gas fees have hit sustained all time highs. Bitcoin and Monero transaction counts are extremely high despite the price of the assets being well beneath their height, signaling organic adoption and utility beyond speculation. It’s difficult for people outside of this space to see, as you only notice when news hits the front page. I work at a major crypto exchange (Poloniex) and all of our metrics are very bullish. I don’t think your 2017 opinion is relevant anymore.
  - roland-s 6y ago
    Does high tx count and low price really mean utility? Seems it could also mean market is unsure of the asset's intrinsic worth and speculations are constantly in flux. Or could mean lots of speculative alts being built on top of main chain, things like Omni?
- jonnydubowsky 6y ago
  Bitcoin sees highest trading volume in 118 days’ Yesterday’s volume of $54,406,443,211 was the highest in one hundred and eighteen days, 138 percent above last year’s average, and 26 percent below last year’s high. That means that yesterday, the Bitcoin network shifted the equivalent of 871 tons of gold. https://thenextweb.com/hardfork/2020/09/11/satoshi-nakaboto-bitcoin-sees-highest-trading-volume-in-118-days/ https://thenextweb.com/hardfork/2020/09/11/satoshi-nakaboto-...
  - mulmen 6y ago
    I don't doubt your claim but how does this compare to 2016? E: I quacked for myself. This seems to show trade volumes in terms of BTC and trades/min have indeed plummeted since late 2016. https://data.bitcoinity.org/markets/volume/5y?c=e&t=b https://data.bitcoinity.org/markets/volume/5y?c=e&t=b https://data.bitcoinity.org/markets/tradespm/5y?c=e&t=a https://data.bitcoinity.org/markets/tradespm/5y?c=e&t=a You can draw your own conclusions as to what that means but the specific claim that trading volume has decreased does seem to be true.
    - noch 6y ago
      > You can draw your own conclusions as to what that means but the specific claim that trading volume has decreased does seem to be true. A cursory glance: - bitcoinity doesn't include Binance in its list of exchanges which is a strange omission. https://coinmarketcap.com/rankings/exchanges/ https://coinmarketcap.com/rankings/exchanges/ These might be a bit more accurate: - Exchange traded volume: https://www.blockchain.com/charts/trade-volume https://www.blockchain.com/charts/trade-volume - Transactions per day : https://www.blockchain.com/charts/n-transactions https://www.blockchain.com/charts/n-transactions 7 day averages are down from 2018, but up compared to 2016.
- tuesdayrain 6y ago
  What motivates you to lie about something that is both trivial and easily falsifiable? A quick glance at coinmarketcap shows BTC daily volume in 2016 peaked around 360 million USD. Today the 24h volume is at 70 billion.
  - CharlesW 6y ago
    > What motivates you to lie about something that is both trivial and easily falsifiable? My "lie" is so trivially and easily confirmed: https://data.bitcoinity.org/markets/volume/all?c=e&t=b https://data.bitcoinity.org/markets/volume/all?c=e&t=b
atty 6y ago
Nothing about bitcoin, ethereum or any other blockchain enabled financial object lives outside of regulation. The regulation just has not have caught up yet. The implementation of the laws and regulations will change because of the nature of the technology, but in no future where cryptocurrencies have any importance, are they magically left unregulated. Effectively what you’re advocating for is criminality, which is ironically the only major industry that’s thriving in crypto right now, as far as I can tell.
- seibelj 6y ago
  Laws are only enforced if we all believe they are just. The government can say whatever it wants, but throughout history citizens have ignored / disagreed with laws and they have changed as a result. I don’t even have to mention current protests for a recent example. If you don’t understand this technology then it’s easy to be naïve. Check out https://tornado.cash/ https://tornado.cash/ It is an unstoppable contract to facilitate monetary anonymity! Good luck
  - XMPPwocky 6y ago
    So which is it? Are the laws unenforceable in the face of this 13-year-old technology, or are they enforceable but unpopular (and if so, why deal with all this cryptocurrency stuff instead of just lobbying hard to change unpopular anti-money-laundering laws directly?) There was a reason Poloniex pulled out of the US last year, right? What was that reason? And remember- if your paycheck depends on this technology- or, particularly, if you hold lots of cryptocurrency- it's easy to be willfully naive about its potential.
    - seibelj 6y ago
      People have used crypto to sidestep laws for 13 years. The laws don’t matter.
      - XMPPwocky 6y ago
        If not for legal reasons, why is Poloniex no longer operating in the United States?
XMPPwocky 6y ago
Interesting- why are those good things? Or are they bad (sounds like you're saying I don't/shouldn't like them?)? Also- are there defenses against physical seizure/confiscation under duress of e.g. the bit-coins used for Ethereum, built into the protocol? If not, how can it be free from government interference? Unless you're paying entirely for digital goods which can be delivered anonymously, wouldn't you still have to interact with the physical world at some point? Is the idea just that it makes it harder for the government to stop money laundering and so they'll hopefully give up? I mean, look at your examples, Uber and AirBNB. They moved fast and made lots of money for themselves... And, what, changed the world? Eh, not really. As they matured, governments caught up with them, and now they're collaborating more and more. Uber and AirBNB aren't subversive anymore- they've done their disruption, had their fun, made their money, and now they're just another app. And looking at the bitcoin space, I see similar movements- miners are big conglomerates now, major exchanges roll out more and more invasive KYC protocols, the IRS releases guidelines describing how to declare these on your taxes... You think AML enforcement won't be coming? "Hey, where'd you get that Ferarri?" "Uhh, well, somebody must have just accidentally sent the money to my Monero address, and it's untraceable so I can't send it back, so..."- you're not going to have a great time fighting that! Sorry if you can't handle the facts- but if you actually want to fight a government (whether or not that's a good thing for society) you should really think about what you're dealing with! In terms of enforcement, even a perfect privacy coin doesn't seem much harder for a government to handle than cash or precious metals. The big exceptions are those working in areas where their local governments turn a blind eye- e.g. ransomware gangs. So, if you don't have to fear the government asking questions, but the people paying you might (or if you want the people paying you to not be able to find you), there could be a reasonable use case.
- seibelj 6y ago
  If you create a piece of art, then sell it for an anonymous currency, can anyone prove you didn’t buy it from yourself?
  - XMPPwocky 6y ago
    This same argument would work with cash, wouldn't it? If this is an effective way to launder money with any currency that doesn't have traceable records, do you think it's commonly done with cash? If it's not, why not, and why don't those reasons apply to crypto? At least thinking about it myself, it seems like the conversation with an investigator might go something like this- "Where did you get this money" "I made this art, and then bought it from myself." "Why?" "No comment." "...okay, where'd you get the money to buy it from yourself?" ...and now you're in the exact place you were before you tried the art thing, except you now look extra suspicious. There may, however, be some emotional benefit from letting your creative juices flow and expressing yourself, so I guess it's not all bad. Or did I misunderstand what you were asking? Sorry- getting a bit late here.

CharlesW 6y ago

> This happens every day in increasing numbers. Nope. Bitcoin trading volume (for example) has plummeted to a miniscule fraction of its late-2016 hype height.

seibelj 6y ago
It doesn’t seem you are familiar with this space, given that Ethereum transaction gas fees have hit sustained all time highs. Bitcoin and Monero transaction counts are extremely high despite the price of the assets being well beneath their height, signaling organic adoption and utility beyond speculation. It’s difficult for people outside of this space to see, as you only notice when news hits the front page. I work at a major crypto exchange (Poloniex) and all of our metrics are very bullish. I don’t think your 2017 opinion is relevant anymore.
- roland-s 6y ago
  Does high tx count and low price really mean utility? Seems it could also mean market is unsure of the asset's intrinsic worth and speculations are constantly in flux. Or could mean lots of speculative alts being built on top of main chain, things like Omni?
jonnydubowsky 6y ago
Bitcoin sees highest trading volume in 118 days’ Yesterday’s volume of $54,406,443,211 was the highest in one hundred and eighteen days, 138 percent above last year’s average, and 26 percent below last year’s high. That means that yesterday, the Bitcoin network shifted the equivalent of 871 tons of gold. https://thenextweb.com/hardfork/2020/09/11/satoshi-nakaboto-bitcoin-sees-highest-trading-volume-in-118-days/ https://thenextweb.com/hardfork/2020/09/11/satoshi-nakaboto-...
- mulmen 6y ago
  I don't doubt your claim but how does this compare to 2016? E: I quacked for myself. This seems to show trade volumes in terms of BTC and trades/min have indeed plummeted since late 2016. https://data.bitcoinity.org/markets/volume/5y?c=e&t=b https://data.bitcoinity.org/markets/volume/5y?c=e&t=b https://data.bitcoinity.org/markets/tradespm/5y?c=e&t=a https://data.bitcoinity.org/markets/tradespm/5y?c=e&t=a You can draw your own conclusions as to what that means but the specific claim that trading volume has decreased does seem to be true.
  - noch 6y ago
    > You can draw your own conclusions as to what that means but the specific claim that trading volume has decreased does seem to be true. A cursory glance: - bitcoinity doesn't include Binance in its list of exchanges which is a strange omission. https://coinmarketcap.com/rankings/exchanges/ https://coinmarketcap.com/rankings/exchanges/ These might be a bit more accurate: - Exchange traded volume: https://www.blockchain.com/charts/trade-volume https://www.blockchain.com/charts/trade-volume - Transactions per day : https://www.blockchain.com/charts/n-transactions https://www.blockchain.com/charts/n-transactions 7 day averages are down from 2018, but up compared to 2016.
tuesdayrain 6y ago
What motivates you to lie about something that is both trivial and easily falsifiable? A quick glance at coinmarketcap shows BTC daily volume in 2016 peaked around 360 million USD. Today the 24h volume is at 70 billion.
- CharlesW 6y ago
  > What motivates you to lie about something that is both trivial and easily falsifiable? My "lie" is so trivially and easily confirmed: https://data.bitcoinity.org/markets/volume/all?c=e&t=b https://data.bitcoinity.org/markets/volume/all?c=e&t=b

atty 6y ago

Nothing about bitcoin, ethereum or any other blockchain enabled financial object lives outside of regulation. The regulation just has not have caught up yet. The implementation of the laws and regulations will change because of the nature of the technology, but in no future where cryptocurrencies have any importance, are they magically left unregulated. Effectively what you’re advocating for is criminality, which is ironically the only major industry that’s thriving in crypto right now, as far as I can tell.

seibelj 6y ago
Laws are only enforced if we all believe they are just. The government can say whatever it wants, but throughout history citizens have ignored / disagreed with laws and they have changed as a result. I don’t even have to mention current protests for a recent example. If you don’t understand this technology then it’s easy to be naïve. Check out https://tornado.cash/ https://tornado.cash/ It is an unstoppable contract to facilitate monetary anonymity! Good luck
- XMPPwocky 6y ago
  So which is it? Are the laws unenforceable in the face of this 13-year-old technology, or are they enforceable but unpopular (and if so, why deal with all this cryptocurrency stuff instead of just lobbying hard to change unpopular anti-money-laundering laws directly?) There was a reason Poloniex pulled out of the US last year, right? What was that reason? And remember- if your paycheck depends on this technology- or, particularly, if you hold lots of cryptocurrency- it's easy to be willfully naive about its potential.
  - seibelj 6y ago
    People have used crypto to sidestep laws for 13 years. The laws don’t matter.
    - XMPPwocky 6y ago
      If not for legal reasons, why is Poloniex no longer operating in the United States?

XMPPwocky 6y ago

Interesting- why are those good things? Or are they bad (sounds like you're saying I don't/shouldn't like them?)? Also- are there defenses against physical seizure/confiscation under duress of e.g. the bit-coins used for Ethereum, built into the protocol? If not, how can it be free from government interference? Unless you're paying entirely for digital goods which can be delivered anonymously, wouldn't you still have to interact with the physical world at some point? Is the idea just that it makes it harder for the government to stop money laundering and so they'll hopefully give up? I mean, look at your examples, Uber and AirBNB. They moved fast and made lots of money for themselves... And, what, changed the world? Eh, not really. As they matured, governments caught up with them, and now they're collaborating more and more. Uber and AirBNB aren't subversive anymore- they've done their disruption, had their fun, made their money, and now they're just another app. And looking at the bitcoin space, I see similar movements- miners are big conglomerates now, major exchanges roll out more and more invasive KYC protocols, the IRS releases guidelines describing how to declare these on your taxes... You think AML enforcement won't be coming? "Hey, where'd you get that Ferarri?" "Uhh, well, somebody must have just accidentally sent the money to my Monero address, and it's untraceable so I can't send it back, so..."- you're not going to have a great time fighting that! Sorry if you can't handle the facts- but if you actually want to fight a government (whether or not that's a good thing for society) you should really think about what you're dealing with! In terms of enforcement, even a perfect privacy coin doesn't seem much harder for a government to handle than cash or precious metals. The big exceptions are those working in areas where their local governments turn a blind eye- e.g. ransomware gangs. So, if you don't have to fear the government asking questions, but the people paying you might (or if you want the people paying you to not be able to find you), there could be a reasonable use case.

seibelj 6y ago
If you create a piece of art, then sell it for an anonymous currency, can anyone prove you didn’t buy it from yourself?
- XMPPwocky 6y ago
  This same argument would work with cash, wouldn't it? If this is an effective way to launder money with any currency that doesn't have traceable records, do you think it's commonly done with cash? If it's not, why not, and why don't those reasons apply to crypto? At least thinking about it myself, it seems like the conversation with an investigator might go something like this- "Where did you get this money" "I made this art, and then bought it from myself." "Why?" "No comment." "...okay, where'd you get the money to buy it from yourself?" ...and now you're in the exact place you were before you tried the art thing, except you now look extra suspicious. There may, however, be some emotional benefit from letting your creative juices flow and expressing yourself, so I guess it's not all bad. Or did I misunderstand what you were asking? Sorry- getting a bit late here.