4 ms·

“Plants can provide every nutrient required for human survival save for vitamin B12.” Which is what’s interesting to me, you basically cannot actually be vegan

“Plants can provide every nutrient required for human survival save for vitamin B12.” Which is what’s interesting to me, you basically cannot actually be vegan without supplements. Maybe this is where we should go as a specifies for ethical reasons. But it’s a mental leap to rely on supplements for vital nutrients.

seanwilson 6y ago
B12 usually comes from bacteria in soil (and not meat directly) that we don't get now because of cleaner vegetables and cleaner water. Likewise, many industrial animals kept indoors won't get as much B12, so that's why they're given B12 supplements. If you avoid meat, you can just take B12 supplements directly instead of them being filtered through an animal first. If you think this sounds "unnatural", there's nothing natural about intensive animal farming which is where most people get their meat from.
atweiden 6y ago
My B12 supplement is derived from plant sources, which I find far preferable to secondary B12 consumption from injected grain-fed animal tissue which is the modern status quo. [1]: https://www.gardenoflife.com/content/product/mykind-organics-vegan-b-12-organic-spray/ https://www.gardenoflife.com/content/product/mykind-organics...
- ncmncm 6y ago
  There are exactly zero plant sources of B12. Or animal sources, either. 100.0000% of B12, anywhere in the world, comes from bacteria.
ncmncm 6y ago
All of the B12 consumed anywhere in the world -- and all animals need it -- comes exclusively from bacteria. The bacteria in your colon produce thousands of times as much as you need, but you do not absorb so much as a nanogram of it. (Dogs and rabbits eat their own crap to get it.) The process for absorbing B12, in the upper intestine, is the most intricate of any vitamin, starting with saliva. Apparently the huge variety of almost-B12 variants have to be filtered out, so as not to gum up the works. It is common for Americans (and maybe others?) over 50 to develop an autoimmune reaction to some part of the process, and lose most ability to absorb B12. (You may notice shooting pains in your arms if you get this.) Then you need to take 5mg daily supplements. The micrograms in meat and dairy are then not enough. So, if you think you are eating meat for the B12, surprise! that is not where it comes from. Homo erectus probably got enough from the dirt on everything, and grubs.
- pvaldes 6y ago
  > Homo erectus probably got enough from the dirt on everything, and grubs And now they are extinct. It seems that the plan didn't worked very well. The faster way to ingest lots and lots of bacteria so you don't die is a simple one: Carrion. Our ancestors ate as much as they could find. The other monkeys are dead (and our plant eaters relatives are almost extinct).
  - ncmncm 6y ago
    You are descended from Homo Erectus. They survived for many times longer than H. sap has, and it is far from clear that we will outlast them, in the end. Eat carrion if you like. I will send flowers to your grave.
    - pvaldes 6y ago
      > Eat carrion if you like. I don't need to, animals have plenty of vitamin B12, but I could do if necessary of course, because my species is omnivore. Better than ignoring my real nature and being forced to eat dirt or my own crap to fix my diet. > I will send flowers to your grave. Can't fall to mention that is a nice detail. Will be appreciated.
      - ncmncm 6y ago
        > Will be appreciated. You will be dead, and not equipped to appreciate anything.
drewm1980 6y ago
We used to get B12 from bacteria in the soil, but these days we clean our food immaculately, and we're also ruining our soil. My understanding is that B12 deficiency is a potential problem for everyone; vegan diets are just under more scrutiny. Also, the whole notion of "supplements" is not very useful; it's all just food. I don't know how B12 is produced, but if they're growing it by culturing the same bacteria we used to get B12 from, we have only industrialized the same symbiotic relationship we already had with certain microbes.

seanwilson 6y ago

B12 usually comes from bacteria in soil (and not meat directly) that we don't get now because of cleaner vegetables and cleaner water. Likewise, many industrial animals kept indoors won't get as much B12, so that's why they're given B12 supplements. If you avoid meat, you can just take B12 supplements directly instead of them being filtered through an animal first. If you think this sounds "unnatural", there's nothing natural about intensive animal farming which is where most people get their meat from.

atweiden 6y ago

My B12 supplement is derived from plant sources, which I find far preferable to secondary B12 consumption from injected grain-fed animal tissue which is the modern status quo. [1]: https://www.gardenoflife.com/content/product/mykind-organics-vegan-b-12-organic-spray/ https://www.gardenoflife.com/content/product/mykind-organics...

ncmncm 6y ago
There are exactly zero plant sources of B12. Or animal sources, either. 100.0000% of B12, anywhere in the world, comes from bacteria.

ncmncm 6y ago

All of the B12 consumed anywhere in the world -- and all animals need it -- comes exclusively from bacteria. The bacteria in your colon produce thousands of times as much as you need, but you do not absorb so much as a nanogram of it. (Dogs and rabbits eat their own crap to get it.) The process for absorbing B12, in the upper intestine, is the most intricate of any vitamin, starting with saliva. Apparently the huge variety of almost-B12 variants have to be filtered out, so as not to gum up the works. It is common for Americans (and maybe others?) over 50 to develop an autoimmune reaction to some part of the process, and lose most ability to absorb B12. (You may notice shooting pains in your arms if you get this.) Then you need to take 5mg daily supplements. The micrograms in meat and dairy are then not enough. So, if you think you are eating meat for the B12, surprise! that is not where it comes from. Homo erectus probably got enough from the dirt on everything, and grubs.

pvaldes 6y ago
> Homo erectus probably got enough from the dirt on everything, and grubs And now they are extinct. It seems that the plan didn't worked very well. The faster way to ingest lots and lots of bacteria so you don't die is a simple one: Carrion. Our ancestors ate as much as they could find. The other monkeys are dead (and our plant eaters relatives are almost extinct).
- ncmncm 6y ago
  You are descended from Homo Erectus. They survived for many times longer than H. sap has, and it is far from clear that we will outlast them, in the end. Eat carrion if you like. I will send flowers to your grave.
  - pvaldes 6y ago
    > Eat carrion if you like. I don't need to, animals have plenty of vitamin B12, but I could do if necessary of course, because my species is omnivore. Better than ignoring my real nature and being forced to eat dirt or my own crap to fix my diet. > I will send flowers to your grave. Can't fall to mention that is a nice detail. Will be appreciated.
    - ncmncm 6y ago
      > Will be appreciated. You will be dead, and not equipped to appreciate anything.

drewm1980 6y ago

We used to get B12 from bacteria in the soil, but these days we clean our food immaculately, and we're also ruining our soil. My understanding is that B12 deficiency is a potential problem for everyone; vegan diets are just under more scrutiny. Also, the whole notion of "supplements" is not very useful; it's all just food. I don't know how B12 is produced, but if they're growing it by culturing the same bacteria we used to get B12 from, we have only industrialized the same symbiotic relationship we already had with certain microbes.